This normal paladin ability, is actually also a 1st level cleric spell in PnP.

The spell can be cast in four modes, detect evil, detect good, detect lawful and detect chaotic.

Now I know adding spells is difficult, but I was thinking it may be possible to use an item as a go-between.

I'm not sure if it's possible to write code for when you cast a spell on an item in your inventory, but may casting level 1 protection from evil/alignment on the item will use up the slot and cast a DETECT EVIL or DETECT GOOD instead.

I'm not sure if it's doable or even desirable but the paladin's detect evil sure gets a work out.

Although we dont have any blackguards (that I know of) on here, they can of course also detect good as an ability like paladins can do of the reverse.

the spell is actually detect alignment..and to make it an item would mean that it wouldnt use up a spell slot...

Make it so the item works when a spell of the lvl of detect alignement is cast on it?

This seems kind of silly, though. Without getting into a debate that will get this thread locked, I'm of the opinion that detect evil cuts out what could be a lot of excellent roleplay between paladins and evil characters whose players have gone to trouble to come up with a philosophy that makes their malevolence logical in the game world as it is. There would be no point to doing so if every level two cleric could simply say that you're evil and be done with it. This would make things like infiltrating a good (or evil) group or temple or playing a subltly evil character impossible, and would only serve to polarize good and evil characters rather than letting them mingle, which is where most of the fun comes in. I think it would be a huge mistake to bring this into the game. :|

sounds fair to me. since the scripting for Paladin detect evil has clearly already been done.

I don't forsee this being used in any ideal way. You would be able to determine anyone's full allignment with process of elimination, and after that, I see everyone knowing everyone's full allignment in a matter of minutes. Allignments might as well be public then, like levels are.

I do Not think detect alignment should be added into NWN from PnP. Yes it does exist in cannon, but I feel it would drastically reduce the feel you get when interacting with other characters. Unsure of their motivations or if they will betray you. It allows for an interesting feeling that is cool here in EFU, that would be completely ruined by... "Hey you cleric, Come 'ere. Here a handful of gold, whats that guy in the corner think like?" I mean, there arn't that many paladins flooding the server. But there are Alot of clerics. So in my opinion this would be a bad can of worms to open.

On top of that, if someone is in the process of changing their character's alignment then it might match who they are anymore.In that case the spell would then give faulty information, because unlike in PnP, the Dm's can't constantly monitor your behavior, making changes to your alignment. (they could be, don't get me wrong, but i doubt it)

On top of that, I'm told it is a bulky script to add, and I don't think the work involved to make everything function correctly would be worth the result we would get in game.

[Edited due to massive amounts of convoluted spelling errors]

yeah, next thing will be a protection from neutral spells and i dunno. just keep it the way it is :) I never felt I need it to RP better. (yes, it will make life easier to a cleric, but we're in the underdark, we don't seek to make our life easier ^_^ )

also, no need to add scripts before we solve older ones, and Im sure the dms have lots of work already (correct me if Im wrong), not including RL work.

just trust your char's feelings, like, when you see a person who talk darkly (not only *darkly*:P ) and you hear the way he express himself and behave, it will tell you enough. (often evil chars act the exact opposite way )

alogen yes, it will make life easier to a cleric...

Eb0l Velsharran: *glare glare glare* Goody Tr0mtard: *Detect Alignment* Goody Tr0mtard: "omg u r eb0l!!1" Eb0l Velsharran: " lolz yes" Goody Tr0mtard: "k u wanna qeust" Eb0l Velsharran: "k i perpare mw + bulls" DM: "lolz pwnsauce rps lolz" DM: *Grants XPz0rz*

Yes, this is somewhat of an extreme example, well past the point of ridiculousness, but try and imagine the scenario with two Helmites in which case this could very well happen (okay, maybe not the last part).

Where paladins face actual restrictions regarding who they can associate with, clerics have basically none, and I'll hazard a guess as to why: because clerics aren't a force of good (or evil, for that matter), but representatives of their patron deity. Clerics should focus on converts, initially leaving the evil-kickassery to paladins.

Clerics have enough good stuff already, without having an at best shoddily implemented extra spell ontop of whatever else they can cast.

I think sensing motives is just not something I want expanded in EfU. It makes lying and infiltration impossible for anyone that can't afford to fork out massive amounts on potions.

I assume as a balance the second level "undetectable alignment" spell would be added as well? It's aweful nice...and lasts a day.

Sorry...I hadda add that XD

For every way to divine things theres a way to misdirect that, so you can still be fooled either way. Just depends on the resources of the people involved.

And yes I was talking about using UP a level 1 slot spell to cast it. Thats why you cast a level 1 spell on the item for it to be cast. The spell is still used up, the effect is different though.

One of the problems that NWN has always had is its focus on combat orientated spells/things over the other aspects of PnP. Instead of implementing divinations (which are harder to code) you get mostly basic attack/defence spells.

And yes theres misdirection as well sedarine and other ways to foil divinations. Not to mention items that do the same thing.

detect good detect evil....seriously paladins are rasist against the evil folk as it is. no need to create more rasist tensions

Fair warning: I will lock this thread if it digresses into a debate about whether or not paladins should get Detect Evil. If you want to discuss that, please do so in a more appropriate thread.

Yes, I know you're talking about using UP a spellslot, but that's still an extra spell prepped.

I'm no scripting expert, but I would say it'd be incredibly difficult to make the use item actually occupy a spellslot without a spell being there first and then being removed when the item is activated. This means you have a choice about what you use. Either you can detect alignment or use the spell. It's like the Cleric's spontaneous cast on healing. It's an extra spell. And I think it'd probably be clumsy since I'm not sure how you could elegantly get it to actually select the spell you intend to sacrifice for the detect alignment, rather than just the next spell prepped.

I stand by my initial intuition. It's not a good suggestion.

It's just a way to get past the inability of nwn to add spells (without hakpaks)

Thats why I suggested a specific spell be used as a surrogate (like protection from alignment)

True this gives this already useful spell an alternate use. (when you cast the spell on the item in your inventory the detection effect happens)

My arguement is not that paladins shouldn't get detect evil, it's that other divine casters (especially an evil cleric) for example should get the reverse.

This server is supposedly a supporter of conflict and bigotry based on ethics, morals, deity worshipped and etc are all strong sources of this. All divination can be masked by other effects anyway, even the paladins detect evil. If this was to be implemented it would definitely go hand in hand with ways to mask this sort of magic.

"Why councillor thats a nice pendant you're wearing , does it have any residual magical effects?"

"Oh no citizen, it's purely ornamental"

My random thoughts on the matter...

1. If it's to be given out, then only clerics of gods that have corresponding (opposed, that is) domains should have the ability. So a cleric of Kelemvor (Law domain) could detect chaotic creatures, but nothing else.

2. There are items that return a particular result (spell cost) when a spell is cast upon them. It would probably not be that hard to alter that script to run a "detect X" instead, and you could even specify exactly what spell you have to use to do it. Protection from alignment seems appropriate.

I assume as a balance the second level "undetectable alignment" spell would be added as well? It's aweful nice...and lasts a day.

3. Eh... perhaps the alignment widget that lets you detect alignment could be usable by clerics and other classes to let you use a particular level II spell to achieve the undetectable alignment ability. Darkness, lesser dispel, or silence seem appropriate choices for this sort of thing.

Perhaps an item could be implimented to have the spell Detect Chaos/Law/Good/Evil avalible when used (possibly with charges, like a wand), that way there is less need for scripting (I beleive), it also means that should the ability become overused, it's easier for dms to remove it (by simply decreasing the chances of it dropping or removing it altogether)

I think this is doable from a mechanics perspective (we'll pick a really, really useless first level spell, Scare, entropic shield, doom, and edit doom so that, instead of doing whatever useless stuff it does now, it detects evil...).

But I don't think it's desirable from an IC perspective. We like a little bit of mystery to people's alignments. That's why only paladins can detect, and you can usually spot a paladin half a mile away.

It's not really desirable to put this in, though I'm fairly certain we could.

-Greg

Hey! Doom and especially Entropic Shield are way more useful than a stupid detect alignment!

Okay, back to topic please.

I wouldn't really surgest it for replacing a spell, since said spell would still prove useful. One of the reasons I think it as an item would be good is so to limit random clerics simply detecting alignment, since it is not somthing a cleric -needs- to do.

That's why only paladins can detect, and you can usually spot a paladin half a mile away.

I have mearly one thing to say:

Good aligned cleric talking to a evil cleric/rouge of Mask:

*detect opposite alignment* Holy shit balls! You evil

*detect opposite alignment* Holy shit balls! You gooooood

Good Cleric: It is in helping those around us and leaving the world in which we live a better place that we find purpose. Maskan Priest: That is an absurdly idealistic thought! Your foolish naiveté will do far more damage than it - Good Cleric: [narrows his eyes slighty] Stop your pretensions and make whatever point you may have. Maskan Priest: [smirks, faintly amused by the person he's talking to] Very well, I'll make my logic more simple. I forget that you are young in the ways of the world and that your attention span is limited. Sanctuary is an environment in which the amount of resources cannot hope to match the number of consumers. Only by taking what you want for yourself and holding it tightly can you preserve what you deserve. Good Cleric: That statement is ludicrous! It's perfectly logical for you to consume only what you need and share the rest. We stand a much greater chance of survival if we work together and provide for all!

And so on. Call me crazy, but I prefer this sort of roleplay, in which you have to actually look at the arguments your opponent makes rather than simply spamming a widget.

I wasnt advocating spamming a widget, you cast a spell on an inventory item.

The spell activates, it's obvious to others you cast a spell, unless you cast it before you approached them. (it is supposed to be a time based pulsing divination)

I agree too that sort of roleplay is preferable.

So is the "detect's evil", <thinks to self, I'll have to watch that one, he's done some cruel things in the past and may do so again> And yet doesnt act or say anything untoward.

I have no objection to detect good/evil/law/chaos spells, provided that 'undetectable alignment' is included as a second lvl spell, and can be 'potioned'.

Without the second, the first would ruin too many plots.

There is another issue too, that of P evil/good (law/chaos doesnt exist) now in NWN2, as in PnP, this DOESNT make you immune to mind spells, just gives +2 saves. If we are going to put in those detect spells, then protection vs evil/good would also need restoring to 3.5 settings, for the sake of balance in PvP.

Just brainstorming a bit, but we have items that are X use/ day. In the OC there was that little item whos name I forget that could charge a magic item by consuming another magic item.

Perhaps the use/ day item could reset it's charge # to zero on rest and be set to charge by casting a spell on it. You could charge as many charges as you like. The spells used in charging acting as the detect whatever (good/ evil/ law/ chaos). Make the item unuseable in combat. My scripting is shakey at best....feasible???

Paladins should gain DE at level three or four to stop the flood of noob-char paladins or something

Honestly, the only reason to have a detect alignment spell is so that your character could never be tricked or decieved by another clever player. There is no benefit to that, IC or OOC. Having your finger on the f-12 invis potion when you are going to have that "private meeting" with that d00d you "aren't really sure about, but still think you should hear him out" is half the fun.

I wouldn't mind seeing undetectable alignment, detect alignment, and some kind of wild potion that makes it so clerics can not detect your alignment added. I don't see what's so overpowered about knowing another person's alignment, especially since such things can be arbitrary, and change within the day.

I like the idea of the paranoid priest of Mask constantly sweeping over his theive's guild, trying to find the rat in his organization. The crazy priest of Cyric culling out goodly harper-wannabe spies in his cult. The crusading cleric of Torm who detests all evil, and works with misguided people to change them for the better. ETC.

At any rate. I won't lose any sleep if this is never implemented, yet I'd like a better reason than: "We want mystery and intrigue." to be the main arguement against denying clerics something they have access to in Canon 3.0 D&D.

I think it's a good idea; it will not hurt anyone or even hurt lying or spying characters much.

I can't see how it is overpowered or bad in any way, I believe it would even cause more interesting and fun conflict, like wcsherry says and instead of good clerics happily questing with evil or vice versa. They might see the true nature of the people they work with now and either cause conflict with evil or work with them to change them for the better, other things might happen too due to it.

wcsherry

I like the idea of the paranoid priest of Mask constantly sweeping over his theive's guild, trying to find the rat in his organization. The crazy priest of Cyric culling out goodly harper-wannabe spies in his cult. The crusading cleric of Torm who detests all evil, and works with misguided people to change them for the better. ETC.

The dread cleric of Bane unleashing a merciless inquisition on his followers, crushing all those of non-LE alignment beneath his solid black metal heel!

I'm going to feint.

Yes. Yes.

At any rate. I still think it was be neat to give the Chaos and Law domains a boost by allowing these clerics to at least be able to detect the opposite of what they stand for. Maybe allow the Evil domain to detect Good. That domain is so god awful as it is <_<

wcsherry Yes. Yes.

At any rate. I still think it was be neat to give the Chaos and Law domains a boost by allowing these clerics to at least be able to detect the opposite of what they stand for.

deception is rife, this is one of the ways past some of it.

I like the idea of the paranoid priest of Mask constantly sweeping over his theive's guild, trying to find the rat in his organization. The crazy priest of Cyric culling out goodly harper-wannabe spies in his cult. The crusading cleric of Torm who detests all evil, and works with misguided people to change them for the better. ETC.

This is not only possible (not to mention more fun!), but more inclusive as well if alternative routes are used.

Rather than constantly casting detect alignment on your high priest's followers, hire other characters to spy on them. The high priest of Mask begins paying fellow guild members to spy on each other and makes the atmosphere more competitive. His lieutenants are subtly at each other's throats as they try to conduct their own business while and keep an eye on the comings and goings of their rivals. The priestly guild master is getting dirt on all of his followers from a number of sources. Who can he trust to be telling the truth, and who is simply trying to eliminate a rival to earn themselves more power? He begins hiring spies outside of his organization and puts a plan into motion: he decides to capture a priest of Tyr who's operating in Upper and sacrifice him to Mask, hoping that such an offering would give him divine guidance as to who was trustworthy.

Test them, giving them missions that a true follower of whatever god would want to do. A Cyrist sending his followers out to snatch up a few citizens of Lower and then bringing them back, where he can force the followers you suspect of being less than loyal to the Black Sun to sacrifice them. If they flinch, sacrifice them too. Quiz them on the more obscure parts of Cyric's dogma and have them report how it is part of their everyday life.

Work to make your religion appealing. Your flock of Tormish is working to eliminate a priest of Bane who's followers are working to earn a council spot in Lower. The high priest suspects that some of his followers may be tempted by the power, authority, and control that the Black Hand uses to tempt his followers. Instead of casting detect alignment to see who may be susceptible to the honeyed words of the malign Imperceptor, he begins holding services more often and is faced with the very difficult task of making a lifestyle based around helping others appealing in an environment in which it is increasingly difficult even to take care of one's self. He provides meals with his service to attract the hungry and destitute, and he prays for the proper words and ideas to defeat the tempting but all too destructive words of the Banites.

The dread cleric of Bane unleashing a merciless inquisition on his followers, crushing all those of non-LE alignment beneath his solid black metal heel!

I'm going to feint.

Alignment tests would not be absolutes, since oftentimes they can be a very arbitrary thing. Follow-ups would of course be necessary. Counters will exist to make these tests foggy at best under certain conditions.

At any rate, it's a neat D&D 3.0 canon-tool that could be used to augment some domains that are less-than-attractive as it is. (Law, Chaos, Evil, Good.) You're right, Scalebane7676 - and what you're suggesting is what we have been doing since we all started roleplaying clerics on NWN, and will continue to do even if this gets added. :)

I know - what I'm saying is that the ability to cast a spell and see everything a character believes and his entire moral and philosophical outlook (more or less) would cheapen the great RP that you would normally have to do to find that out.

Making people able to 'know' whether you are 'lawful good' or not.... I don't know. How exactly do you quantify lawfulness? How can you detect whether or not they are 'chaotically minded'? What possible rationale is there? I can comprehend people having a 'taint', but I can't rationalise being able to ascertain someones 'chaoticness'.

I actually believe that detect evil cheapens things - but it is required in canon, and here, too, for obvious reasons. Blackguards do not become less evil by travelling with good people.

Paladins can already do the same thing. People have managed to find ways around that. Do they cheapen the game too?

And NC... I don't have the PhB on me at the moment. Or I'd copy/paste!

Blackguard like paladins get an innate detect spell too.

So they themselves can "judge" based on somebodies alignment, so they can find out who their abilities are going to work better against, and also who's going to please their dark deity the most by them bringing about their downfall or demise. (smite good anyone?)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm

An innate ability is always stronger than a spell, but thats what the ability was in the beginning. Divination spells ALWAYS get the raw end of the stick in CRPG's it's to be expected I guess.

wcsherry Paladins can already do the same thing. People have managed to find ways around that. Do they cheapen the game too?

Yes, frankly, but I'd rather not get this thread locked. You can usually smell a paladin's angst from a mile away, and anyone with any points in knowledge: armor color will be able to spot even the biggest newb before he tries to sense ebol. With clerics, it's considerably more difficult. Sure, your average fanatical priest of Bane or Torm likely has one of the dead giveaways somewhere on his person, but when dealing with a follower of Mask, Tymora, Mystra, or Cyric, it's pretty to let someone slip under the radar.

I'm of the opinion that this opens a huge can of worms that doesn't need to be opened to have a good time here on the server. As I said earlier, it will only polarize good and evil into increasingly absurd extremes as the ability to play a character who's either subtle or intelligent enough to keep his head down becomes harder and harder. Players will go for the easy choices: the Banite who spends his time sewing babyskin boots and the priest of Illmater bragging about how many evil characters he's killed rather than both parties actually working to make their deity's dogma something interesting to other people. Hyperbolic? Perhaps, but it's likely a good determinant of things to come.

I'm not sure if having to spam a spell that would hide alignment would do any good, either. It's what you'd have to do the moment you logged in, and doing so would make the paladin's ability to detect evil pretty much obsolete. Despite the problems that I have with detect evil, I suppose that if anyone should have it, it would be paladins. Giving it to clerics would cheapen the ability of paladins to do so, and the resulting overuse of the counter-spell would eliminate any need for detect evil.

Yes, the concept sounds like an interesting one, but I severely doubt that it will bring anything worthwhile to the game. Instead of sparking debate, clerics will become divine detectives who, for a price or simply out of the goodness of their hearts, will divine another character's alignment for someone. This really, really isn't what I want the mod to come down to for character conflict along the alignment scale.

My argument is that the story that the game is here to tell is more inclusive, interesting, and exceptionally more fun when the story has a chance to play out. Sure, paladins are religious zealots, and many people might be a little reluctant to listen to them, giving your character a little leeway to still pursue a public facade as someone who might not be a bad guy, but if the entire priesthood of every good temple started arguing that you're evil 'because our god tells you are', there's no way that you can really argue that.

Think about any story or movie that you've heard. Isn't the most exciting twist the one where the protagonist's true enemy is among the rank of his friends? Wouldn't movies about the tense, suspensful atmosphere of undercover cops or spies who have to carefully cover their tracks and manipulate those around them be cheapened if someone could have cast a spell on the main character and determined whether or not he was of the proper moral outlook to be among their members? My point is that implementing this will kill so much that could have been that it wouldn't really be worth including.

As I said earlier divinations can be blocked or misdirected, and I wouldnt propose bringing in the ability to detect like that without methods for blocking because they're both canon.

Right now is it possible for a paladin's ability to be blocked on the server?

An amulet of misdirection for example reports the result from a different target than the wearer. So a paladin's detect evil would be returning the result from somebody else in the area. But if you're standing in a group of evil characters then of course you're still going to detect as evil.

Yes to your question, Chaosprism. There are several ways.

I'm going to use my own cleric as an example for a moment. He knows who is good and evil on the server, because he's always hanging around a paladin. Does that mean he will never interact with evil PC's? Does this polarize the interactions he's willing to make? Not at all.

Furthermore, I would argue that any character with social skills, Bluff especially, or even Persuade could muster up a decent arguement against whatever the Cleric would have to say against them. "You think I'm not up to par with the rest of the Cult? That's because we've only just met. Give me a test to prove myself before GodX, and I'll prove that I'm loyal."

I'm going to make the arguement for the last time, and then I'm done posting on this thread. Alignments are not absolute, definite, obvious markers of what a character will do next. They are often times always changing, and do not describe a character as accurately as one might think. Reading too deeply into anything a detection spell would tell you could easily be the downfall, and the cleric's loss when it comes to interaction.

Though I seem to be alone on this one, and every DM and player who has posted here seems to detest this aspect of D&D 3.0 >_>.

Lords of Darkness Anyone can swear loyalty to Bane and join the Church. However, the Church expects loyalty and is not stupid, so it performs alignment checks on new recruits to see if they are fakers or potential saboteurs. Even those of alignment difference are given the opportunity to convert, for Bane recognizes the value of those who have seen the lure of good and turned away from it to serve evil.

I'm with you, Sherrycakes!

[quote="Ladocicea"]It's not a good suggestion.

ditto

It's more fun to find out by looking into it, testing them, and so forth, than clicking a button. Pass!

I like the idea of law/chaos/evil/good being able to detect the opposite alignment. I can understand why people don't, but I can imagine situations where it would only enhance the play-experience rather than detract. Additionally, I think I'd like to see more law/chaos conflict for both neutral/good/evil instead of just mostly good vs. evil all the time.

Personally, neutral characters seem to get treated as semi-evil by pure good characters, mainly because they allow evil to occur.

So the good vs. evil/neutral is very evident, but hardly anyone plays the law vs. chaotic. I have met a few players where my chaotic character obviously has clashed with lawful ones which has generated some interesting conversations. However, I do feel that most chaotic good characters tend to play things more Lawful good than chaotic, don't ask me why, it just appears that way to me anyway.

But personally I would like to think that only holy men could have this sort of insight into the minds of others. Whereas my chaotic neutral character has had to learn by experience who is willing to help out in his sometimes absurd plans and who isn't.

If Detect Alignment was to be added, I agree with Mr. Grendel's suggestion that it should be tied in with the Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil domains. A cleric with Good and Law domains could thus detect both chaotic and evil people, while a cleric with Chaos could simply only detect lawful people. This would make it easier to implement (I think!) and still ensure it was a fairly exclusive thing. Perhaps make it only available to work on level five and above, as well.

wcsherry Though I seem to be alone on this one, and every DM and player who has posted here seems to detest this aspect of D&D 3.0 >_>.

Not at all Sherry, you obviously see the benefits of another layer of deception. No more will that pesky paladin thwart your plans to corrupt him! I suggested...nay, demanded that undetectable alignment be added as a counter because I believe that detect good/ evil/ law/ chaos ought to have a counter. A check and a balance if you will.

I wouldn't mind seeing this in at all XD