I've seen chars with max hit points, I've seen chars without max hit points.

I talked to Sassy and he said re-rolling hp was considered cheating. If this is so, it should be openly conveyed to the community, so we don't have half- or one third of a server cheating bigtime.

If re-rolling is a no-no, I suggest that the number of hit points gained when leveling be hidden (this was done on another server I've been on) so the player cannot see what number of hps his character is gaining/missing out on.

If re-rolling is not a no-no, we accept that barbs and such have a shitload of hps to reflect their innate toughness. Which is preferable I leave up to you.

-Ibe

Seems pretty lame and obvious that you shouldn't reroll. If the DMs wanted everyone at full HP, they can easily script that I would think.

Let's make it more interesting then:

Is rerolling HP on levels you've already got cheating?

For example, if a level 8 character has 90 HP, dies, and then levels back up to level 9 and ends up with 80 HP.

Oroborous Seems pretty lame and obvious that you shouldn't reroll.

And the obviousness has to originate from something. If you are a n00b and come from servers where max hit points are the norm, not to re-roll might not be the most obvious of conclusions.

I agree that having, say, a Dwarf Barbarian with toughness feat with minimum HP is a bit odd.

Despite that, I suppose it's always going to be considered "technically" cheating, since if you were supposed to be able to choose what HP you get on level up, they would've allowed you to just do exactly that, rather than having to randomly roll for it.

The simplest way to solve this problem would've been to not include the HP in the "Final sheet of stats" you're presented with and have to OK or Cancel, but rather add them on after.

Oroborous If the DMs wanted everyone at full HP, they can easily script that I would think.

Can this be done cleanly without a hak?

Ladocicea The simplest way to solve this problem would've been to not include the HP in the "Final sheet of stats" you're presented with and have to OK or Cancel, but rather add them on after.

Can this be done cleanly without a hak?

Almost certainly not.

I know you can script per vault, in on levelup a declared random in void. You would completely deny a player the oppertunity to say either play a minimum hp build or a maximum hp build max/min and it is decided on a percentage. Of course then whiners(good grief charlie brown!!) will complain that they have max hp- such as my character does- for a charcter concept(not me) rather than cheating and the ones who RP a charcacter with the very minimum will complain about losing flexiblity. Two headed coin.

Ladocicea Wrote:

I agree that having, say, a Dwarf Barbarian with toughness feat with minimum HP is a bit odd.

Even a dwarf barbarian built Ford Tough on an extended hold person spell is rendered denied. My point on that is, that no matter if you chose to max hp or not, there is always a counter. So you just have to ask yourself, even if someone(like myself) is parading around with a max hp does it matter to you? I can tell you with utmost honesty that my maxed hp hasent done me dick. I die about every time I log on. And to me, is not about a max hp, or a build, or even death percentile, which I think you may be ultimately referring to. As far as rerolling, the option was encoded into game so I would place my bet on the assumption it was for single player. But if we all get so tight worked about if someone has 50 or 5 hp then I think we are on the right path to Griefdom.

Bioware already doesn't let you roll "minimum" HP. I've noticed that the first few levels you always have maximum, so it must be possible to do it.

However, here is why its cheating to reroll.

If you do it, fine you do it. If I choose not to do it, fine I'm giving up a small edge for the sake of not feeling silly.

However, many players may not even realize they can take advantage of the system in this way. Giving you an advantage over them that you gain due to your knowledge of how to exploit the system, which is not fair.

I don't really see what your point is, Duffman.

Even a dwarf barbarian built Ford Tough on an extended hold person spell is rendered denied. My point on that is, that no matter if you chose to max hp or not, there is always a counter.

I may be misinterpreting what you're saying in that first sentence, but how can you compare saves and counters to HP? There IS no counter to max HP.

I No no. I misrepresented myself.

Oroborous Wrote:

\

However, many players may not even realize they can take advantage of the system in this way. Giving you an advantage over them that you gain due to your knowledge of how to exploit the system, which is not fair.

I-with strong chance, might, be in denial, I don't see it as an exploit. I do agree it is not fair, I do. Though for the sake of this thread, I have a barbarian, Caiden, with well--ok this point is moot. I have only twice gone above level 2 so I am forced a max HP. Bury that hatchet. As far as a reroll goes, On Caiden, his 1st time above lvl2 I rolled a 7 for hp with a CON 18 ok. No big deal. Kept it. Death ensued and after more backhauls, I again reach level 3. Roll a solid 14. Good to go(barbarian for the 14) Kept it. Last death was a crit 28 poof off he goes into the great divide. As far as Caiden goes, he sacks his STR for HP. Which is truth. He will never be a wild swinging, hard hitting SOB ever. He is dependent on HP(more like a flanker) Doing the same amount of dmg as a typical fighter. So yes, I do put alot of weight on rolls for HP as far as Caiden is concerned. That said, Caiden is not the typical barbarian. Nor is this topic about Caiden so that somewhat cancels out my defense that an obscure is not the mainstream.

Oroborous Wrote:

If you do it, fine you do it. If I choose not to do it, fineis I'm giving up a small edge for the sake of not feeling silly.

Feeling silly. It's not the extra 3+ HP that I get worked over about. Feeling silly is a mage with a blatent 18INT stat base and rerolling on max HP per CON such as a gnome. That is feeling silly. That is kind of, no it is; abuse. And I agree on all counterpoints to me stated previous.

Ladocicea Wrote:

I may be misinterpreting what you're saying in that first sentence, but how can you compare saves and counters to HP? There IS no counter to max HP.

Im not comparing the three. As far as the initial thread about rolling/rerolling and HP, Im saying this. Even if someone takes or abuses an extreme, an ability(DEX) or a skill abuse(Hide) a save abuse(Will)-which all are abused often enough save alone the topic of HP, that in order to post extreme, a counter is always prevelant to sledge hammer that wall down. Example as my latter, Caiden. I sack STR as a barbarian and I sack basic feats for the CON. A healthy SOB hoping to take damage over and over in order for others in party to get on the ball and regroup when shit turns south. Basically a time saver. Again removing Caiden from this scenereo........

There is a counter Lad to HP-and that counter is Will. Remove the notion here about barbarion-reguardless. It can be a sorcerer, a ranger, a rogue-whatever-if your HP is maxed something has to suffer-that is the counter.

Look, Im not suggesting that my character is maxed for the sake of me to exploit. First the DM's would catch wind to that style of play and move quickly to abort that whole mess. Second, Ive created said character as a dummy bag. To take damage. Again removing Caiden from the situation(let me remind you still Caiden cant level past three) I do not see the abuse. Abuse is regrouping. Learning is not. And as far as the latter goes, learned knowledge is applied knowledge.

Arkov

Oroborous If the DMs wanted everyone at full HP, they can easily script that I would think.

Can this be done cleanly without a hak?

Ladocicea The simplest way to solve this problem would've been to not include the HP in the "Final sheet of stats" you're presented with and have to OK or Cancel, but rather add them on after.

Can this be done cleanly without a hak?

Oroborous many players may not even realize they can take advantage of the system in this way. Giving you an advantage over them that you gain due to your knowledge of how to exploit the system, which is not fair.

Clerics on another server i polayed used to have more hit points than my fighter, simply because i never re rolled. It made me feel a burning hatred for folk that did it, i do consider it an unfair use of a technicality, but for fairness i'll look at things from the two sides of the argument.

Oroborous Bioware already doesn't let you roll "minimum" HP. I've noticed that the first few levels you always have maximum, so it must be possible to do it.

The game AUTOMATICALLY gives you maximum hit points up to level three, that's true.

iBeholder If re-rolling is not a no-no, we accept that barbs and such have a shitload of hps to reflect their innate toughness. Which is preferable I leave up to you.

This is true. To be honest, i would NOT be adverse to seeing their one advantage over fighters continue - if it could be done for every single player. Unfortunately... :-

Oroborous many players may not even realize they can take advantage of the system in this way. Giving you an advantage over them that you gain due to your knowledge of how to exploit the system, which is not fair.

Exactly, 100% on the dot right.

Either everyone should have maximum hit points, or no one. A random guy coming to check out the server (granted, likely to be a rarity until nwn2 is out) might not know how to reroll anyway.

So. What's the ruling? I haven't spoken with the other DM's about it, but we had a discussion many sunsets ago - this pretty much covers my thinking on the subject :

If you choose to have maximum hit points, that's your decision - we can't enforce it. However, do not expect to gain any favorable custom made weaponry, or artifacts, regardless of how good your character is roleplayed, simply because you already have an advantage, game mechanics wise.

If you choose to create a truly roleplayed character, with less than perfect statistics, and less than the maximum hitpoints, your chances of gaining equipment that augments your abilities are much, much higher, in fact to the point whereby i will actually take the time out to design something with your 16 intelligence, 14 wisdom, low hitpoint fighter in mind.

As much as it pains me to do so, I'm gonna have to go with the "Big deal." argument here. People may re-roll, people may not re-roll, and there's very little that we can do to prevent them. As such, I don't think it's really worth worrying about - our server has a lot of DMs, who routinely allow and encouage players to work outside the game mechanics. This minimizes the ability of players to dominate by sheer HP/AC/AB, inasmuch as this is possible.

Far worse than any damage that a player could do be rerolling HP is to create a "Max HP!" witchhunt, with everybody looking over everybody else's shoulders, condemning folks with near-max as rerollers, etc.

Let that which does not truly matter slide.

-Cross

We ask players to not re-roll hitpoints on EfU, and may monitor attempts to do so. I'll include this with our rules so it's clear. It does make a difference mechanically and we owe you guys a clear answer as to whether it's acceptable or not.

As with everything though, EfU is intended to be a story-based server and in the big scheme of what's important here we're looking for characterization and goals as the main defining aspects of a character, not the stats.

Oroborous Seems pretty lame and obvious that you shouldn't reroll. If the DMs wanted everyone at full HP, they can easily script that I would think.

I think you're overestimating people. Players take advantage of what they have. Some people see it as lame, and some players might not realize that.

But really, this isn't a big issue. If someone does get max HP rolls every time, is it really going to change your game experience?

_Nightfire_

Oroborous Seems pretty lame and obvious that you shouldn't reroll. If the DMs wanted everyone at full HP, they can easily script that I would think.

I think you're overestimating people. Players take advantage of what they have. Some people see it as lame, and some players might not realize that.

But really, this isn't a big issue. If someone does get max HP rolls every time, is it really going to change your game experience?

Obviously.

I can't fathom how you defend it. Not logically.

Let's look at how and why its done.

In order to better survive combat, you exploit the game system to maximize your hit points.

In order to play by the rules, the way the game was designed, and to keep the playing field level with those who do not realize this exploit exists, I do not maximize my hit points to better survive combat.

Now, our characters get into a PvP situation. You have an unfair, exploited edge in this combat from the start. This will blatantly affect my gaming experience, possibly allowing you to win in the PvP situation because you cheat to gain an edge.

Situation two.

You unfairly exploit the system in the game to gain an edge in combat by maximizing HP.

I do not unfairly exploit the system in the game.

During a quest that we're on. We each take 60 points of damage.

Because you cheat, you have 12 hp left and survive the quest. Earning a gold and experience award.

Because I did not cheat, I died. I lose a great deal of XP and experience instead.

You get to gain more levels and more loot faster. Earning more in game tangible rewards than I because I didn't cheat.

If we then enter a PvP situation, you have now, an even larger and more unfair advantage because you exploited the system.

By definition, cheating gives you an unfair edge and there is no way you can't see this as an unfair edge.

Unless people who maximize their HP refuse to engage in PvP with the people who don't cheat, then there is no way you can even begin to justify this in my mind. The only saving grace is that the DMs *might* notice that you exploit and *might* notice that I won't exploit: and they *might* reward me with an item to counteract your unfair edge in PvP.

Then hopefully, when I die later in a quest because I'm not a proven exploiter--the exploiter won't loot the item a DM gave me to counteract your unfair edge because then you have an even greater edge earned in part because you exploited.

I can tell you, I already lose a little respect for a player who I know rerolls HP and engages in PvP. I tend to ignore these players entirely when they try to engage me in PvP, and to be bluntly honest see no reason not to exploit them in turn by simply logging out if they try to use their unfair edge to hurt my fairly played character so I can log back in later to deal with people who won't cheat.

This server, more then others is about conflict. To say that any advantage people give themselves will not have an effect is a bit silly. Hit points are essential and having had characters with high rolls, and characters with low rolls the differance is huge.

Victory rarely has to do with the amount of HP you have, though it does play a factor.

The character with 40 AC and 60 HP will likely survive battle(s) where a character with 120 HP and 10 AC were to fail.

Although, in the end, it's still an unfair edge, but I hardly think it's worth the amount of debate put forth already.

Inquisitor, you set up a mock situation that deserves mocking. ;)

We'll all have roughly the same AC on a server set up to control the amount of magical gear you get. So the realistic situation is not 120 HP + 10 AC versus 60 HP and 20 AC.

It'll be 25 AC and 120 HP versus 25 AC and 80 HP. Since a fighter with a +2 CON bonus at tenth level will have 120 HP if he is maxed. That same fighter, if he isn't maxed could have as low as 80 HP or less. That is an incredible edge, especially when its gained due completely to an exploitation of the system.

Its no different than logging out to avoid dying in PvP. It robs the other player of any sense of fairness. It shows disrepect to other players. It simply put is unethical to come into a shared game world and then take advantage of things that put other players at such obvious disadvantage.

I think what it boils down to is that re-rolling HP for max would not occur in any respectable PnP game, atleast none that I've been in. This server seem to be geared towards the people who enjoy the PnP feel that can be given to NWN, which is what I play here to get. People that detract from this, I choose not to associate with.

I personally do not enjoy playing with people that re-roll for max HP, not because they do that only, but because when on scripted quests they tend to be the ones that say things to the effect of "No, I'm alright (at injured). There's ony two mephits left in the last room anyways." This interaction is what has driven me to play here, rather than other servers where this occurs more frequently.

Some however, truly do not know what the server may be about up front, and perhaps have not played a well run (or perhaps never played) PnP game. Usually people are new and when refered to the rules in a polite way are appologetic. The few that respond otherwise, I do not play with again. If you are doing it, you are maximizing the gain for your character by manipulating the game engine. Sounds a lot like powergaming to me, doesn't it?

*edited for rewording*

The real issue, as I see it, is the randomness of HP in the first place. Seriously, what the hell does a dice roll have to do with how tough your character is? I think if you approach the situation in an IC perspective you'll figure out whether or not to max HP's. Consider this, would my character be tougher then the average joe? The tendency is to lean toward yes, we all want our characters to be tough, but in many cases this is not the case. Most of my characters are ordinary people, so I don't let them have advantages that they probably wouldn't have. If I feel they would have an advantage, then I use it. In many ways, I'd like to see stats reflecting this attitude as well. Not every fighter is going to have 16+str, or every sorcerer going to have high charisma. Play your character honestly, and that will be its own reward.

PanamaLane The real issue, as I see it, is the randomness of HP in the first place. Seriously, what the hell does a dice roll have to do with how tough your character is? I think if you approach the situation in an IC perspective you'll figure out whether or not to max HP's. Consider this, would my character be tougher then the average joe? The tendency is to lean toward yes, we all want our characters to be tough, but in many cases this is not the case. Most of my characters are ordinary people, so I don't let them have advantages that they probably wouldn't have. If I feel they would have an advantage, then I use it. In many ways, I'd like to see stats reflecting this attitude as well. Not every fighter is going to have 16+str, or every sorcerer going to have high charisma. Play your character honestly, and that will be its own reward.

Nor will every character have max HP. Which is why you roll it once, get the result and accept it.

I think what it boils down to is that re-rolling HP for max would not occur in any respectable PnP game, atleast none that I've been in.

And in any respectable PnP game attributes will be rolled as well, not assigned by a set number of points. Also in any respectable PnP game monster HP will be rolled randomly. So it seems to me that unless spawns are set to randomly calculate HP each time, that HP for PCs should also be set to a static point, be that max or average.

Squyrl ...that HP for PCs should also be set to a static point, be that max or average.

Can this be done cleanly via scripting, without a hak?

(I'm open to any technical solutions to this whole issue!)

I dont understand why this thread continues to grow. Some peolpe might reroll, some may not. Cheating? maybe. Does it matter? Not really. If a DM wants you dead, they will find a way, its that simple. These threads are just as bad as they are helpful. I never even considered that you could cancel out of leveling and reroll by restarting...until I read a thread like this. It never occured to me until someone else brought it up in a thread similar to this. Now, I'm not a D&D expert. I dont know every rule there is. But, I remember a time when you had to roll your stats. You rolled them and that was it. There was no assigning from a point pool to allow min maxxing and such. Point being that everything is not a direct facsimile of its PnP brother. I'm more familiar with the world than the rules. If that is how you do it now, then I apologize. As is though, its an imperfect world. In the end a few more or less hit points wont really make that big a difference. We're all dead in the end. Its up to the player to be responsable. If they want to build a supersoldier for every character they make, they are missing the point of role playing.

Ibeholder If re-rolling is a no-no, I suggest that the number of hit points gained when leveling be hidden (this was done on another server I've been on) so the player cannot see what number of hps his character is gaining/missing out on.

Unfortunately, this suggestion cannot be implemented without a hak. Therefore, as previously mentioned, players are asked not to restart the leveling process to merely adjust their character's hit points. This has been added to the server's rules to clarify our position on the subject.