So, I was sitting here in the forums trying to catch up with forum paperwork and I thought it'd be useful to discuss one of the major issues that EfU struggles with.

In many ways I think we've pretty much made the right decisions, and it's sort of an unavoidable problem when dealing with a persistent world of this nature, but it's definitely an issue that over time as EfU has grown there's an issue with an overabundance of groups and factions. We tried to be really careful about not introducing too many factions at the start, but now about a year in we've got 28 different forums that in some way correspond to a particular group. Many of those are PC groups, some of which are very inactive. We do regularly purge the faction forums of inactive forums, so there'd be a lot more if we hadn't done that. Other of these forums probably don't count for some other reason, but the fact remains is that there are a LOT of different groups out there in the game world.

As Dms, we love it when players demonstrate initiative and work to involve others. So, player factions will always get the nod and smile from us. That said, I can't help but think sometimes -- perhaps particularly when I'm struggling with forum work -- that the server would be better if instead of a whole bunch of different groups there was more of an effort to bring more people into a small number of groups.

The thing, as DMs what we're going to do is try to interact with groups of players. When we see a group that is doing stuff, we're more likely to try to run something for them, throw monsters at them, help them with a goal, and so on. More importantly, I -strongly- believe that persistent worlds are much more fun if your character has close associates or a group of other characters that they're directly involved in.

The original model for EfU in my head was a place where there were multiple groups, all engaged in forms of conflict (scheming, PvP, political fighting, rivalries, whatever) and where new characters would from the start be encouraged and practically -fought over- as potential recruits for these groups. The differences in the groups wouldn't be simplistic or just alignment-based, but nuanced and setting-appropriate. Great stories would be told, but the engine of fun beneath the surface would be that characters/players would have a sense of belonging from the start.

There's nothing more fun than joining a place and from the start getting a chance to "belong" to something, even if really it's just the "associates" program or something like that. Built in allies and enemies from the beginning is really something to aspire to, I think.

In practice, I'm not sure this has happened so much. I definitely do not think new players are encouraged as much as one could imagine to associate themselves with a particular group. I could go into that more, but it's actually a distraction from what I think is my main point.

When a faction is filled to the bursting is when it will be the most fun for characters. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that tooling around with your fellow faction members whether to go on a DM quest or to rumble with your rivals or even just go on a scripted quest is much more preferable than sort of wandering around by yourself. When I see a bunch of faction members online, it is easier and in many ways more productive for DMs to interact with them then if there's just a bunch of PCs milling around.

This post definitely isn't an attempt to set any rules or criticize anything that's happened, it's more of a chance to make an observation -- I guess, simply that I think EfU would be more fun in some ways if the total number of factions went down and the factinons that remained became more full.

Of course, I'm not sure what the practical answer is -- if any.

What do you guys think?

I agree. When I was more or less all alone in the Seekers with Cog, things were dull for me. I didnt have a lot of people to share my secret stuff with, and I got overwhelmed with people wanting to make "seeker-ish" requests of me.

Same thing with Zau, there was a long stretch where the other guys werent around much, and were it not for my faithful companion and goblin man-servant Squeagle, I'd have gone stir crazy.

Fill them factions up! Especially the mainstream, public ones like the Spellguard and watch. Less emphasis on the player factions is fine by me.

Factions are absolutely lovely. In a server I played in prior to this I paid little to no attention to factions until I left, but truly I did not see the beauty of a faction until I played Jacob Geigne. He started out as a loner and ran through so many factions that I can't recall all of them (Councilor, Sanctuary Times, Commonwealth, Underwatch, Golden Doubloons, Pissing Crone, Brief Assasin Thing, Toboerski Knight(?)...) and I have to say that was truly a blast if not the best roleplaying experience I've ever had. I found myself squeezed in the middle of PVP conflicts in every which direction since I became so damn involved that I ended up conspiring against everyone which spurred more conflict. It was ~awesome~.

Truly, truly, truly I have to say that if you're looking for a good time here you need to associate yourself with a group, a faction, a buddy, something! You'll find yourself in conflicts, in odd situations and you will have a group of consistent friends that you can chill with. It is better to be with a friend then be alone in that dark corner.

As for player factions, I find that the majority of the time they die out quick. Though there have been exceptions, such as the Golden Doubloons which has kept me up all night for weeks, I'd personally say that unless you have a truly solid idea and can start with some support that it's probably better to look into the DM factions, as they often find themselves lacking too!

All in all, join a faction!

Being alone in a faction also means that you have less to do as a character because the DMs become more scattered and spread over the player base. The fewer factions and the larger the factions, the more each player gets DM attention per time interval of DM log in. If the DMs only have to make one quest which includes three Seekers and four of their friends, then not only are those players involved, then the DM has more time/freedom to help plot or quest with others. This would not be the case if the DM had to make one quest for three of the same players as non-affiliated adventurers, and another for the other four in the same predicament. So if you want to get into the game, help beef up one of the original factions. Almost all of them are lacking.

So when you are thinking on a new character, considering applying to the following (In order, top to bottom, of factions most in need of bulking from my point of view): The Golden Mercenaries The Society of the Ordered Mind The Seekers The Spellguard The Watch

All of those, except the Watch, have about one highly active PC in them, they are all part of the module as it was when it was first created (Tigereyes = Golden Mercs). They get lots of DM attention if their players take initiative and start doing stuff, which is notably easier with more members.

So, the best way to join is contact one of those active PCs and talk to them about the basics, find out if you are interested or if it fits your character. Then, apply to the DMs. Don't be shy. As you can see from Howland's post, they -want- to approve you. If the app does not work out, talk with them and figure out what might and unless you are way off the mark, a compromise can probably be made to everyone's satisfaction.

Actually, I've given up trying to find out what all the factions are. One belongs to this, another belongs to that. What do they do? Protect their own and go quest - this is mostly true for the player factions I have witnessed, but is in no way meant to be absolute for all.

The concept of factions is excellent, I think. And it should be, and indeed has been, the origin of many moments of inspiring roleplay. I think prestonhunt is right when he says to fill the main factions up. We need to "feel" their actual presence more and this will add to the server mood, the rp and so on.

From Howland's post it could sound as if we have just a bit too many factions now, as 28 different forums could indicate. One reason could be that certain classes / alignments find it much more difficult to enter a faction than others, so perhaps that would warrent a look into certain factions and the requirements of initiation, particulary of the main ones who would likely consist of a multitude of different persons.

I've been noticing Howland's points over the duration of my stay here. In a way it seems people are trying to involve people too much with their own factions and groups and not trying to get involved with other factions themselves. It seems the playerbase at present is too small to fill up those 28 or so factions.

So I agree, less emphasis on the amount of factions and more emphasis on the size of factions.

Hm... I've been trying hard to join the Spellguard, but Executor Strife told me that I was denied. Perhaps I should join the Golden Mercenaries? Are they accepting wizards?

I know that the Tigereyes accepted the occaisional wizard, and any mercenary group with half a brain would want members with a wide variety of skill sets, so I say go for it Argent! To address Howland's point(s), I know I easily got the most enjoyment ever on this server playing Korath, an original member of an infamous and nasty little faction you have all heard of...

Some of the fondest memories I have of playing on this server come from the time I spent playing in the Tigereye Mercenaries. DM factions, and associates of said factions are all a great way to see a character truly shine.

As everyone has said more or less, join up and be assured of a fun ride, succeed or fail in your goals.

With 28 factions, wouldn't it be feasible to encourage the leaders of very similar ones to perhaps work together more?

I'm just brainstorming here.

1) purge any faction with less than x members and no activity for x time.

2) take faction leaders aside who have similar factions with similar goals and encourage a fusion between them.

3) provide a list of active factions; PC and NPC both along with a list of numbers of players involved (it risks giving away some plot information; so rather than saying "Cult of Moander" perhaps simply "Disease Cult" and give some information so that a player who wants to get involved knows who to contact. This will help new players especially find these factions. I'm pretty active in recruiting with my faction, and no one in it except one is someone I've ever dealt with before--but its still tough to just get a new player's attention sometimes.

4) sometimes faction characters get "lost" and the faction's goals or plan is derailed, it should be clear that its OKAY for a faction to get advice like the Stouts recently did on the forums.

5) I'm really leary of doing OOC faction recruitment, but if the goal is to get more new players who may not yet be interacting with other players as often in game or widely, perhaps player factions should be encouraged to do more OOC recruitment on the forums or even a list in the OOC area coupled with a log-in ID and forum handle for contact.

I love the concept of factions, but I do agree with your observations Howland. One of the best choices I made was posting here in the general forum, before I actually created my character, requesting to somehow be involved with someone. It allowed me to get directly involved from the moment I created a character.

I never really OOCly intended to take on such a strong role in House Toboerski, but that is just the way the character developed.

However, I can say that it has been rather difficult being in such a authoritative position, not just within House Toboerski but in a second faction as well. I enjoy it and it is fun, of course, but it also requires so much time and complete dedication. From the moment I log on, to the moment I log off, I have a huge to do list including long term goals that I have to strive toward. Then on top of that, to stay informed, I am in constant meetings with other characters. It is a lot of work, and at times it is rather overwhelming.

One of the major problems that House Toboerski is suffering from, as a faction, is the fact that for awhile now every new member that we get seems to be killed within the first week or so. Add to that the fact that the majority of the other members of the House are so busy that they rarely log on. Dungal and Melrick, as far as I can tell, are the only real active members of the House that are currently alive.

The lack of members has made recruitment hard. Melrick has so many things to do already, and the fact that he has two factions demanding his attention, is very difficult. They both need members, and recruiting for the other is much easier than recruiting for House Toboerski.

The problem I've run into recruiting for House Toboerski is that we are in a competition with House Archibald to gain members. We are almost like sister factions - we have very similar goals. House Toboerski offers things that House Archibald does not, plot and character development wise, but I can't interest people about that ICly without giving away spoilers.

House Toboerski has been hell to recruit for, unless people were interested OOCly before they were interested ICly. Add to that the fact that Melrick basically can't involve them in any of his personal plots until he can ensure that they are loyal, without risking his neck... and the fact that I can't really come up with a good IC reason why someone should join House Toboerski over House Archibald, considering that House Toboerski will prove a greater IC challenge due to having so many enemies. (The Watch being one of them.)

I think ultimately, if a solution to the large number of factions is sought, then the best thing to do is to require anyone who wants to create a new faction to apply for it. Just like they would apply for anything else, and they would have to state what their faction would offer that the current factions do not. Then the DM's can step back and decide.

I am going to respond out of gut instinct here.

((EDIT NOTE: after writing this I realized that Oro and I shared a few common comments here, sorry for the duplicatin))

FORCE PLAYERS TO JOIN A FACTION in the OOC START AREA. If you want bigger factions, you have to force them to join and make it easier to join. Most players have a concept and with good IG descriptions of each faction available they should be able to figure where their character best fits (even if it's not a perfect fit, the variance will create fun conflict). The PC then has to seek out that group's PC's to get it's starting equipment. This can be done by adding a token like the PC token in the inventory, they show that token to other faction members to prove they're legit.

Applications. Right now, joining a 'standard' faction (spellguard, watch, etc) takes too much effort. Yep. TOO MUCH effort.

You have to Apply OOCly, then wait for a DM/PC vote based on OOC character concept and goals (that may never be reached because of pvp death or something). Then you have to find a PC or a DM in-game to find out if you got in. I applied for the seekers recently and despite LOTS of attempts to get a hold of DM's and PC's, I still have no idea what the status of my application is. (communication of the status of Apps for factions is also quite bad, this needs to be worked on).

Then even once youre in a faction, PC player times vary globally and meeting some of your fellow faction-mates is nearly impossible.

And lets not forget the 'consolation prize' factions - CDL, Brotherhood of Ascension, etc. These are just annoying and somewhat insulting. You spend all the aforementioned time writing out an application to join a faction, just for the DM's to shoot it down and say "you can't join the 'big boy' faction, so here - sit at the 'kiddy table' faction because we feel bad". Granted that's not what's said, but that's what it kinda feels like is being said. And these factions aren't ever really supported by DM's nor is there ANY information about them available to players to understand the goals of the CDL or BoA or whatever.....

These subordinate groups need to be done away with and their members combined into their Big Brother organizations.

Additionally, there are certain 'player factions' taht really should be part of the setting permanently. The House of Light is one. House Archibald and Toboerski are others. There should be a Crime Family faction in lower instead of the damned illusive thieves guild that only accepts elves who worship a certain god (that's too damned specific and even HARDER to locate the HQ of.) These should become regularly DM supported factions.

Player factions should be limited to those factions that have at least X active members. If you can't maintain that membership then the faction is considered either insignificant (not a faction at all) or simply a 'gang' of some kind.

Now NPC factions can be numerous. BUT you can't tell where they're based. I think there should be grafiti marking territory of each gang...especially now that Lower is in a state of virtual anarchy.

More over, uplicate or very similar factions should be lumped into one. Honestly, do we really need BOTH the House of Light AND the Society of the Ordered Mind? I mean seriously.....evil characters can't even JOIN the Societies quest...much the same way that no one would admit an evil person into the House of Light membership. So why not combine these two groups who essentially represent the clergy and paladins of setting? Yes, yes yes they can still have members who love to kill abberations and those who wish to bring compassion to the sick and poor, but why not have BOTH in the same group? This would give both groups more people to quest with and would give DM's an easier time to manage them.

And lastly, maybe each faction should have a short 'initiation' quest that requires two members from the same faction to complete it. This encourages meeting your fellow faction members and, as the loot at the end of the quest, gives you your starting faction specific equipment. The quest is open to any level so that newbies can still get to know a level 8 character that's also in their faction.

For example, my newly created character chooses the Watch as my starting faction. I enter the city and seek out a Watchman PC. The PC Watchman takes me on a quest from the Watchhouse that's a 'magical simulation' used to test my resolve to be a watchman. If I complete the quest the 'boss treasure' is actually my starting faction equipment (watchmans helm, the green armor, etc).

In short,

if you want fewer and bigger factions, players should be forced to join one before leaving the OOC start area OR the application process should be MUCH easier to get past. Subordinate factions should be collapsed into their Big Brother groups as should duplicate/similar groups.

I know this was long, but I had a lot to say about this topic.

It's inevitable that loads of factions will appear. It's what happens in a world where every player wants to be the hero or the massive villain, no one even considers allowing their character to be converted to different faiths and so forth. Everyone wants to make the world their own, and they'd rather come up with factions tailored to their wants than join one that appears to be the best match, or design a character for a DM faction.

It's a very single player mindset, or at best a very PnP mindset (All the PCs in PnP are the heroes, and they can be, since the general population of PnP worlds aren't made up of 70-100 PCs). I'm not going to knock this myself, as it's totally understandable that people will want to play like this and not everyone wants to be an ambient farmer, but a faction leader at the head of their own faction.

That said, please try and find interest in the current factions, instead of making your own. Look through all the current and active factions before you start your own, and the fuller the factions are, and the less there are, the more time DMs can spend tailoring plots to the factions and making it fun.

I can fully understand Melrick's problems.

Archibald and Toboerski are both fine examples of two similiar factions that COULD potentially be fused, but yet I feel the differences are too much to have it make any sense. Toboerski really only has 1-3 active members that I see regularily, and Archibald maybe has the same amount give or take a few. Both Houses offer very different things, once you break past the surface. Toboerski; Rather scheming and huge on recruitment, relies a lot more on publicity gestures (Dungal's speeches, etc.) While Archibald really has a total ass hole for a Captain who lacks tact and despises publicity gestures. Both characters who lead the respective factions may seem similiar, but I can assure everyone that they're very different. Fusion would be almost be impossible, despite the fact they've similiar goals.

I feel the numerous amount of factions generates a lot of conflict between different groups, though conflict within factions is also an awesome thing. I'm unsure how many characters are really in factions, but I think it's a fraction of the characters who are individuals/lone wolves. Or characters who claim to be in factions who don't really do anything but wave a title around.

I think that if more player characters were willing to get involved in factions there would be more far activity, I also think that if more players made characters for existing factions in mind, rather than individuals with some crazy plan of a faction to only divide the server further, that there might be more activity. My own character's original plan was to join the Toboerski Knights, I had a whole lot of things planned that would cause a lot of conflict within the faction, but due to IC actions my character refused and moved on to find a new cause. The Archibald Guard was a result of IC conflict.

I guess I'm just saying; Try to focus on the existing factions that are fairly active, or trying to be, but need that extra push. If the players already involved are awesome, which most are, you'll have a good deal of fun.

In continuance with Lado and djspcetre's thoughts, I think the "satellite" groups of the major factions tend to cause a problem. Everyone -does- want to be a hero, but its easy to feel you're just Sancho Panza when you're constantly stuck in one of the "lower-tier" organizations. It is almost a label- you aren't quite 'as good', so you get the leftovers. You want to be part of the Watch, not the Watch-Light.

As well, these "sub-factions" are basically superfluous. They have the same goal as their "parent", and really serve no use except, I suppose, as a weeding mechanism- which, as shown by the consistantly empty DM factions, is perhaps working a bit too well.

I think considerably easier access to the actual -factions- for PCs would certainly be beneficial- with more defined hierarchies in the faction itself replacing the rather useless "satellite" groups. As well, the factions need adequete advertisement and recruitment, which is, I think, a little wanting from my experiance playing.

Events need to focus more and more on factions, with both player and DM plot-hooks spawning and ending with factions- they need, in short, to be EfU's focus, its tool of story-telling. With this move, you would need to make factions -much- more attainable, and as mentioned above, actively recruit for them.

As is, factions are seemingly an old boy's club, and most are seemingly resigned to being the lapdogs- making it -quite- easy to lose interest. I know this isn't the intention of the DMs, and is likely the result of player perception, but that seems the case, from my eyes, at least.

I've played on several factions, both DM and player, and each was immense fun. But barring a few exceptions, I personally had to seek out the faction from an OOC angle- and I don't think that's a desirable thing at all.

Actually, Mormont doesn't see a possibility of fusing Toboerski and Archibald together. The actual leaders of both factions work very closely and I'm hoping to actually unite the factions in several meaningful ways. We may maintain seperate forums because of disparate in character goals, but overall there is no reason they and several other factions in the city with similar goals--noble rights, stricter/better laws, lawful nuetral outlooks et cetera can't all unite under one larger banner.

In effect you have several different factions still, but now they're working toward one larger goal. This allows the DMs to toss a plot at the meta-faction, the players still can run their smaller base in the meta-faction, and probably see even more conflict and intrigue.

I agree with the idea of having a tighter knit-community, everything revolving around a group of 5 or 6 factions. If there is more focus on just a couple of central events at any given time, and if everyone feels like they have the possibility to get involved - then everyone will have a lot more fun. Factions are the way to achieve this. Fewer and fatter factions will mean that more characters will have similar goals - similar involvement in the same plots. Because the characters will feel closer together - then surely players will get to know each other more, and if one individual pc or player disappears, plots aren't damaged as much.

Its certainly possible to make everyone more involved in factions - but then it has to be accepted that if we are to include more people in factions - the level of rp excellency, the level of IG efforts, goals, etc, which are expected from players - will have to be lowered. Not every PC might be the perfect spellguard agent or the perfect watchman - but if the factions are to increase in size, they might have to expect less of people, as a whole.

But I believe that if a character isn't really ideally suited for a faction - but IS encouraged to enter, to join in, to participate - the player and the character will both learn how to adapt. They will learn by example from the existing members, and what could have been a poor PC in the beginning might evolve into something grand. (I'm not saying however that spellguards should start recruiting monks)

The mentality in recruitment might have to change too. I don't know about a lot of countries - but in France, army guys knock on my door from time to time to ask me if I want to sign in. In EfU, the mentality is different - people are expected to make a character in order to join - and then must make IG efforts to join. In RL - recruitment for this stuff is active ( i.e. Michael Moor(e) shows US army recruiting kids in front of supermarkets) But in EfU - its passive. I'm not saying we should make the watchmen talk to any old PC and ask them to join - but the ooc mentality of the joining process has to be reformed.

I certainly agree with cutting down on the number of factions. I don't believe anyone will refuse to see less PC factions, if they are promised more DM faction participation. Also - we have a brand new DMs (well, almost brand new). Now would be a great time to get more things happening.

im not really for simply cutting down the number of factions because for one thing how do you decide what factions get cut and which do not secondly no matter which factions you get rid off its bound to annoy some people. However allowing no more factions i dont have a problem with or simply merging similair factions into the same group

I agree with Calculor in that the problem right now is that it's too difficult to enter the DM factions. My character is ready and waiting to contribute to the Spellguard, but I was rejected. Odd behavior, for a faction in need of recruits.

You get a lot of responsibility in a faction like the Watch or the Spellguard. Not only will you have the power to arrest other PCs but you'll be given access to relatively powerful faction equipment as well as faction-exclusive information that no one else should know. (And that means OOC discretion, you can of course be an informant ICly.) The Seekers, despite not having arrest wands, also have their fair share of secrets and cool faction loot.

You can't expect these factions to trust just anyone, no matter how badly they might be in need of new members OOCly. (And might I add just for you, Argent, that a wizard who goes around advertising his skills as being for sale to the highest bidder might very well have trouble gaining trust among the Spellguard! Just my guess.)

I have tried IG at times to do this very thing. I found that there were many groups with essentially the same goals. These groups were running around doing what they do, and it was getting confusing with so many similar groups doing similar things. I tried to unite them, but then things got all cattywompus. I dont think its that difficult to get into the DM factions. Just because they are low on people, it doesnt mean they will accept every idiot that walks in their door looking to sign up. That sort of thing leads to more trouble for the group. Even so, many people who dont stand out might get a chance. I handled recruiting for awhile and I saw people who could hardly hold their sword looking for a job. If there was a potential there, whether it be attitude or some other skill, I would still give them a test to see if they were worth keeping around. But not everyone is what the faction, or the current faction representation, is looking for. I think a lot of great player made groups have been made, I didnt realize there were so many. I'm sure some could join together. Like the Plague guild that was proposed. It might make things interesting for internal struggle if there were strong minded characters from different faiths or walks of life.

djspectres idea actually has some serious merit. Making players join a faction as soon as they entered the server might just be a neat way to go about it. Not as one-dimensional as the Everquest or Warcraftian "choose one of two options", but perhaps having a choice of two or three (or no) under groups from the very beginning would be viable, such as Sewer Town, Lower Sanctuary, Upper Sanctuary.

Just responding to this personally, but I certainly think we made some mistakes with over-stretching the playerbase - or rather, allowing the playerbase to over-stretch -itself-, without forming a solution earlier.

Nuclear Catastrophe djspectres idea actually has some serious merit. Making players join a faction as soon as they entered the server might just be a neat way to go about it. Not as one-dimensional as the Everquest or Warcraftian "choose one of two options", but perhaps having a choice of two or three (or no) under groups from the very beginning would be viable, such as Sewer Town, Lower Sanctuary, Upper Sanctuary.

Just responding to this personally, but I certainly think we made some mistakes with over-stretching the playerbase - or rather, allowing the playerbase to over-stretch -itself-, without forming a solution earlier.

That can be as easy as a few extra portals to start locations and perhaps a "starting kit" for people to reflect growing up in a specific area of Sanctuary as oppossed to starting as a random escaped slave.

I think that's an excellent idea.

I have to say this, I am horribly against DJspectres "instant faction" idea. I think this is because I happen to be sitting in the watch - no comments on my activity recently - and we really don't need bob anybody to just hop on a tiddely little quest and join.

For the BigGuy factions (watch/Spellguard/Seekers etc) it Does take work. If you want to join the DMs have to make sure you are up to the responsibility. They don't want jerk players with the abiltiy to pen characters into cages indeffinately for instance. It takes time to be "assessed" like that.

Life can be hard, you do have to put some effort in to get the hefty perks, but damn, it's worth it. When it comes to joining as an IC thing, we almost always Have (almost, Lockwood got in somehow) to like you. It's like that job interview you want, if you go in and you're a dick, well, guess what skippy, you just lost it. It is an IC thing, if my character thinks your character is incompetent, I don't give you a good report, I give you a bad one.

Now if you can't genuinely find a PC, email the DMs, say "oh my god I can't find a PC" and do some hard work in game saying /dm I'm taking a little group out to explore and then want to report to the seekers, okay?.

If you're having trouble getting in contact with the DMs, this does happen, say you've emailed them twice for app status in a week or so and noone's replied, I can't see there bieng any issue with going in IrC and saying, "Hey Howland, I've tried to get hold of you via email about my app, any chance youc an check on it for me?" and I'm sure he will.

If you have, unfortunately not bothered to email first and just said "Damn why isn't my app passed yet? DMs don't do anything" and maybe write about it somewhere, that really, isn't going to show patience and responsibility.

There are things, like these certain player factions bieng part of the setting, they do become it but it takes alot of hard work to do so. If players just slink away into nothing after a month, it won't really happen. DMs have a finite ammount of time measured in nanoseconds in which they can't run everything and do everything.

If DMs suddenly take up all player factions to their own, they will be swamped with "work" to keep them active and running. Players will all suddenly expect this "love" as to why their friend dave's faction is now a DM faction and his isn't. This then starts to take the responsibility off the players, who are there Anyway to make it fun for their little group by running this faction and puts blame on the DMs when it isn't suddenly due to a change in management.

Gangs are player factions, a player faction could consist of 3 people and a few goals, if it's hell of alot of fun for other people, then brilliant, there is no reason why they should suddenly be amalgamated with another faction or forced to recruit.

I wouldn't mind seeing a joining of the society and House but thats up to the players of both mostly to work for it. They so far have kept seperate due to their different goals and gains as far as I can tell.

There are times when players go on quests to join DM factions. I don't want to see a rinse-repeate scripted soultion for this because it takes the fun out of trying to join. When you're sent on a DM quest as a non faction member, and its fantastically full ,and then you get to join at the end because the faction is impressed and wanted to confirm it, that is the extra expensive icing ontop.

Fish

im not sure forcing people into a faction is the way to go. Especially if they dont want to join a faction.

We're not talking about people starting in the Spellguard or Watch from the second they enter the server. That would forever require an app and probably be a terrible idea. We're talking about making people feel they belong in a particular 'region', and maybe allowing for 'regional feats' the way that you should get them in PnP. (Notice that certain feats, including "Courteous Magocracy" for instance, are utterly terrible? That's because as per PnP, it's a regional feat, which means people who live in magocracies get it for free - Thay, for instance.)

This is all well and good, but if the ultimate goal is to bring more focus on factions (and for that matter, more players affliated with factions)- the status quo is obviously not working as well it might in creating this sort of inclusive atmosphere.

While I understand a faction can't accept any hooligan off the street, there's certainly no reason they need be utterly draconian in recruitment, and indeed, there are any number of characters that fit with the main factions, given a little twist and shake.

I'll state again that as far as faction recruitment goes, its currently a very passive thing. It needs to be -far- more active- instead of waiting for PCs to come groveling at -your- feet, I certainly think factions as a whole need to start seeking the above mentioned PCs, and simply recruit them. By taking this simple step, a lot of the above mentioned problems with factions would, I think, be allieved to some degree.

I've joined a few factions.

I've yet to grovel at anyone's feet.

I just send a quick e-mail, usually about seventy five to a hundred and fifty words with an idea. Then a few days later I hear an answer on my idea.

So far I've heard two yeses to my ideas and one no. With the no, I actually got a bit of a compromise and worked from there.

The only thing that slows down anything I think is having to get a PC recommendation in game. The less people in a faction, the harder to get one while the need for PCs in the faction is highest. Its a viscious cycle.

If an application fits, the idea is good, just wave it and assume the PC dealt with an NPC behind the scenes. Its much faster and easier for a player.

I understand, but you're also not a typical player. I suppose my point is that if certain factions are to be important, there needs to be a lot more outreach. As it stands, you sought out the faction- where many, it seems, don't.

this talk of factions made me quite demoralized about my bards guild i hope to be running. besides how many bards are there? i might as well fricken give up if there less than 5

I have been on the server for a little over a month and am not familiar with the factions. I arrived when the steps to the Lower were already closed, so I have no information on the TigerEyes for example. Are they important now? I have no idea. Is it active and who is in the group that is active. I spend time down in the Lower and don't recall ever meeting a Tigereye PC.

I have learned of a few characters from the forums who may be in a faction. I am still trying to understand them IG. Twice recently I, two different characters, have been approached to join a PC faction, due to IC activity, and think it is great. I believe that having IG approach by a faction member will allow new players to understand that their IC actions are noticed and can make joining a faction more interesting.

A new PC just doesn't know even after reading the literature on everything. I myself haven't had time to research all of the forums for the past year to understand what the different factions actually want to do or have been doing.

I would recommend the concept of faction members adventuring with others and recruit from there. It takes time for new PC to understand how the faction members act IG and IC and not just from the forums.

If I missed some useful posts on the factions, I'm all ears. Wait a minute, I don't play any elfs ...yet.

The Tigereyes have been destroyed- I'm fairly sure you can discover that from a number of sources. Reading the common rumours thread is always a good idea to catch up on what you've missed. Quite a few factions have filled their place, though, and with varying degrees of activity. I know that I've been trying to promote another mercenary type faction called the Golden Mercenaries, but we don't currently have a ton of active members. Hopefully that'll change soon, but if you're looking for another mercenary group, like the Tigereyes, we'd probably be the closest fit.

If you're interested in meeting up with my character (And that can be difficult) it makes it much easier if you send him a letter. I respond to all of them, and generally find a way to meet the character ingame.

I am in a faction, and lately I have just felt genuinely bad. OOC: I am terribley busy at work, and actively trying to advance (hostilely) to the spot above mine. I also got married and spent a week in Las Vegas. Throw in the two kids I inherited and soccer, football, girlscouts and all that jive and Viola! Near zero playing time recently. Because we currently have so few in, I feel aweful about being out.

To add to the pile, my main project was an auction to be held at the Tigereye joint. The Tigereye fortress is demolished, persistant storage is still offline, so that goal is pretty bad off. Further, as a wizard I can't carry enough crap to open a lemonade stand let alone hold an auction. I have been trying to brainstorm a few ideas, but all the ones I have come up with seem to suffer from two drawbacks: Too much DM aid needed or too few others involved. I'm going to seek a little DM advice on the goals thing to see about the feasability of a few ideas, because lately I feel bad about not being in and all my faction goals are pretty much toast ATM.

[sighs] Thanks for letting me vent that off. And any wandering DMs that have any feedback are welcome to catch me here, PM, email or IG...Just like you, I'd love to hear your ideas too!

Edited once to add a wisecrack...sorry, I just can't resist: OMG teh Wip3??? Oh noes!

Howland wrote:That said, I can't help but think sometimes -- perhaps particularly when I'm struggling with forum work -- that the server would be better if instead of a whole bunch of different groups there was more of an effort to bring more people into a small number of groups.

I support the fewer but larger and more involved factions. With the server numbers we have now we just can't have so many factions out there that will be filled. I support the few factions but full (quality) over the quantity.

I would also support a website change to give factions and prominent members a boost, perhaps a new forum area where prominent folk brief bio would be posted along with a pic. These things can then be changed more easily when new councilors arrive (ie the player can just write a bio and send it in). Another forum addition should be "Factions", along with a sticky about applications under that heading is a bio of each faction. All the old players know the rules about app submissions, but placing it on the forums and not lost in a website may help boost popularity.

As to the placement into a social group in Sanctuary, I say great. Upper, Lower, Sewer. Fantastic idea, perhaps a scripted "feat" for each, or "skill boost" would add some flavor. (ie Sewer-undropable item giving resist disease feat, Lower-+3 to intimidate, etc...)

Knowing I may take a lot of heat for this, I will say it anyways. I think the easiest way to impliment may be a wipe and a start fresh. Wipe the factions, start anew. Give it a fresh face, fresh start, with full, active factions from the outset. Have people put in apps now with the plan to execute for a set date. When it goes up, everyone hits the ground running.

I believe the server can be reformed without something so extreme as a wipe. Perhaps it will be necessary in the future, but now it does not seem like it is. All that is needed is a slow, steady integration of the factions

A wipe is definitely not needed.

Tristan wrote: slow, steady integration of the factions

Now I agree that this would be ideal, but it has not happened over the last six months, and I would argue that unless a rather rapid infusion of bodies into the major factions occurs at or about the same time, membership will likely fill slightly and then decline just as it has for quite some time. There are many factions player driven, which I think is great. But if the desire is to refocus the server environment on a few major factions I would argue that a wipe is a viable option.

I will back it up with an economic arguement (This is microeconomics everyone): When any business has a decision to make based on capital and position in the market, that decision should -not- take sunk costs into the equation. What are sunk costs you say? A sunk cost is any un-recoverable injection of resources in the past into the business, such as equipment, service agreement contracts, etc, because the money is alrady spent--or sunk--into the business. Businesses who don't change their position in the market due to thinking on sunk costs will not progress in the market relative to other competition, and will more than likely loose capital in the long run for doing so. Ask your economics prof if thinking sunk costs into a business decision is a good thing in a major decision, I can with almost 100% confidence say he/she will say no.

What could be considered sunk costs in the server? The current plot, scripting for the plot, current characters, player factions, etc. If the immediate need for the server is to go back to it's roots so to speak, and refocus on the major factions, it is a -viable- option to do so I would argue. It would change things quickly, refocus people quickly, as well as focus a strong rp element fairly scattered currently in the 28 factions into a few major ones.

I would also offer that some factions could be placed in Lower as a base rather than most of the major factions being in upper. For example, you could have the watch and spellguard in upper, the seekers in lower along with a faction for the lower guard (Toboerski faction), and perhaps the Society. We should all realize could go lower than lower. This would separate factions more equally into the upper/lower/sewer levels to create inter city motion and conflict By separating the Lawful organizations in Upper, the more chaotic organizations in lower (balanced by the toboerski knights, now a DM run faction).

In retrospect, my earlier attack on the associate groups was a bit premature- I can see their use well enough.

I still think, however, that factions could do a lot more to actively recruit, be it something simple as holding frequent expeditions so that newcomers might prove their mettle. This would certainly help to fill the factions, if only through sheer number.

The Beggar

I would also offer that some factions could be placed in Lower as a base rather than most of the major factions being in upper. For example, you could have the watch and spellguard in upper, the seekers in lower along with a faction for the lower guard (Toboerski faction), and perhaps the Society. We should all realize could go lower than lower. This would separate factions more equally into the upper/lower/sewer levels to create inter city motion and conflict By separating the Lawful organizations in Upper, the more chaotic organizations in lower (balanced by the toboerski knights, now a DM run faction).

What I hope does not happen with all of this is make it harder to gather a diverse group of characters to go on an adventure. A diverse group is the most fun to be a part of and I'd hate to have that be difficult to gather because we are at odds with all the Wizards and Rogues that make up most of 2 of the factions that will likely be very class-specific, for example. Again, I would hate to lose that one place where you know players will be, especially when the server is low on people.

Factions do require people to be functional.

At low population server time wise it's hard to get things happening, this is somewhat alleviated by people having multiple characters that can "switch" to what's appropriate. (not that this is everyone's cup of tea)

I agree you need less factions rather than more of them and I think they need to be "generic" enough to cover many aspects.

The watch (which oversea the town's defence) The spellguard (who oversees magic )

These are the most well known factions and they have a basic premise but also a lot of room for multiple threads, background plots because they're fairly open within certain restrictions.

I haven't played that long on EfU yet and don't know much about the factions yet, however I do know how a couple of other servers handled it.

On my last server they had guild levels for player guilds. If you met certain requirments as guild you gained a guild level and each level allowed new options.

For example a guild who had: 6 members a good description of what the guild stands for a guild leader (this one may have been OOC, just for DM contact) The guild would be lvl 2 was allowed a forum board. For lvl 3, you would need 6 active members and clearly function as your guild was ment to. Lvl 3 allowed you to buy guild items or build a guildhouse. (which both still had to be paid for)

Also taxing the guild leaders helps, if the guild has to pay 2000 each week, you force them to collect the money. Creating a common goal for them. Also the leaders might charge their members contribution, that way the members will still active in the guild or just leave. In return they might be allowed to join certain council meetings as observator or even as participator. Sancutary could also call upon registered guilds for missions.(DM quests)

Of course, the other way around is possible too, that the guild leaders pay the guild members weekly. That way the leaders will kick out any inactive member or members who are not dedicated enough to the guild.

I think the key is not more members, but active members, word needs to spread about the guild. The guild needs their parts in the story or atmosphere of the server and create their own image.

Forcing recruitement will only kill the guilds if you ask me, since you'll get a lot of members who are not interested in the guild anyway. The guild should be something a character is proud of, not a burden.

Associate groups can be quite useful in addressing what Howland was talking about, actually. It lets you involve characters that for various reasons might not be able, or willing ICly, to join the faction otherwise.

I have a character that falls exactly into that category. For various IC reasons, the other factions aren't for him, but at the same time he does have a personality that would tend to fall into the law enforcement or civil servant category. The only major faction left, really, was Spellguard, and he's no mage.

Luckily, an Agent spotted him, and he was invited into their associate program, which has led to a lot more involvement than I would normally see, since I (unfortunately) do tend to a more passive play-style. In fact, it's probably the best thing that could have happened to make EfU interesting and fun to me.

Satellite groups can greatly increase the "radius" of people that a major faction is accessible to. I think that's where the greatest strength of satellite groups are, when they try to counter-balance a faction with abilities that faction may not be capable of themselves. Hiring rogues, fighters, etc to compliment the mages of the Spellguard is probably the best example, since it removes the most limiting IC restriction: having to be a mage, one or two classes out of many.

In addition, if they're low-profile groups in terms of DM attention, it makes it a lot easier, since faction players can take over, quickly add people (or kick them out) and make the group even more accessible and flexible while still reaping a lot of benefits that result from DM attention to their parent factions.

Out here, pardner, we like to call them little benefits FUN.

When the Tigereyes existed we made a group called the Tigerfangs. It served as a probationary step for becoming a Tigereye as well as a place for people that wanted in on something, but not totally. It was a way to increase our network and influence. The Spellguard has the Associates and the Watch has the CDL for similar purposes. Groups like these are great for more casual players as well as folk who are unsure on the "Is this right for me" tip.

Personally I'd like to see an established rank system in all the major factions, but I'm hesitant to suggest it because I dont know if one already exists in any of the factions other than the one I've been in (Seekers). I think it makes it easier to induct a larger number of recruits when you have established 'veterans' and 'rookies', or even more specific positions like 'recruiter', 'reconassaince', 'public relations', etc. It may be my OCD side talking, but I thinks its generally a good suggestion for any faction, it definitely keeps people focused. Just a thought.

I will take a small pause to do some advertisement: ===================================== Golden Mercs are actively trying to build a decent faction; What we offer? -Competent, -Best Hideout in town, -Unique Merc items, -Tactic HEAVY players, -Handling the hardest Missions- -a lot cant be given without giving spoilers away! so if you get accepted, you will see "a -lot-" that goes on beyond!!! -We also have NPCs yo! (and NPCs giving beer!)

What we are looking for? -Competent, -Tactic Heavy players,

Truly, this faction will be great! - it has tons of potential, our most needed chars right now are - fighters, (receive unique plate!~ yo!) -and roguish. Spellcasters//clerics are also fine!

You need DM-application for it <-- the more joins, the more fun this faction will get-

try to find us IG, or write to us- we make a lot of posts in Public Annoucement trying to recruit, but I figure since people dont see us around town, they think we dont exist! but that is wrong! we have just the best hideout yo!

I know the Archibald Guard can top anything...

Absolutely no faction armor or loot. Player run and minimal DM support. No awesome hideout with free resting or storage. Not really heavy on deep-dark spoilerish secrets.

That's really all that matters though. We hold a lot of social events, like bobbing for apples, to get past these shattering flaws however. I think we're doing pretty good.

Mort I will take a small pause to do some advertisement: ===================================== Spellcasters//clerics are also fine!

Is a cat fine too?

I guess that means this thread is dead. I shall kill it with one swift hammer-stroke of a mouseclick.