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the plague

A couple of concens regarding the plague, which I'd like some others' feedback on:

1. DC 22 seems to be insanely high - this disease spreads faster than ebola. Isn't a 22 DC too high, all things considered? 2. cure If it were a simple case of people being diseased, getting cured, and getting re-infected, this could be a chance for clerics to shine. But since -NO- divine magic works against the disease, there's little for a cleric to do other than spam lesser restorations. Is it just me, or are there others who fail to see the fun in this? How can you play an Ilmater healing machine cleric, for example, and explain Ilmater (one of the most powerful and LIVING gods), not being able to cure a disease from some washed up VERY MUCH DEAD god? I think that puts a big crimp on RP potential here.

3. Paladin immunity Despite this disease being resistant (nay, immune) to cure disease - it's unable to breach the divine immunity of a paladin. Now, this makes no sense to me. How is it that a paladin's divine protection holds it off, but the same divine magic which normally counters anything but the RAREST of diseases, can't stop it?

In all, I suppose I see this as being fun for the few involved in the plot, and a great irritation to the rest of the server population.

There are very good IC reasons for the disease having a high DC and not being able to be cured by Remove Disease spells, in addition to having no effect on paladins.

I thought this at first, but when I went back ingame after taking a break and played through it again. It was actually a rather satisfying experience. People got paranoid, desperate, started selling quick fixes that were complete cons. Started preaching doom and destruction. Some people started shouting quarantine others just shouted genocide.

This has actually been quite a fun experience personally

MadCaddies There are very good IC reasons for the disease having a high DC and not being able to be cured by Remove Disease spells, in addition to having no effect on paladins.

If it's magical in nature, shouldn't a dispel magic at least disrupt it? Since neither a cure disease or a dispel magic works - what does that make it, then?

Beyond mortal comprehension, evidently.

Again, the IC reasons for the plague not being removed by either Remove Disease or Dispel Magic are solid. Trust me on that!

Fair enough, Mad - but I think I'll just not log into the server till this blows over, as it makes no sense to me at all.

I think the point is that some players didn't enjoy the plot, and it was one of those plots that forced itself on players in a rather heavy handed way. So saying "It makes IC sense!" doesn't actually address the point that for some people it wasn't entertaining.

I presume it all had IC reasons for the way it behaved as a virus; and I also felt it was a little heavy handed in the way it went. A DC of 22 is enormously high and getting infected just by a player walking past you seemed a little much.

I know for a fact a lot of PCs just walked up and infected people on purpose, which again was IC you could argue; but I think some were doing it out of frustration.

A brief delay on the spread, so you need to actually spend time near an infected person would have made more sense than gaining the illness merely because they walked within five (or how many ever) feet of you would have made slightly more sense--or the illness only spread when they "vomitted" something forth.

A little more chance to avoid the disease in other words, with a slightly less exorberant DC. If divine magic didn't stop the disease, but divine immunities still applied--give some IC hints on that--but I'll be honest it seemed a stretch when paladins walked around immune but high level priests couldn't put a dent in it.

As it stands, IC the city should have been wiped out. At the rate the disease was dropping my constitution I'd have expected that.

On one last point, I really really hope a new player didn't log into the server for the first time yesterday. If a plot that heavy handed, that so few players likely realized was coming, and that approached that quickly and hit when no DM was on to help all the panicing players (let alone their panicing characters) there really needs to be a Journal entry to at least give a quick explanation of what's going on. Even a simple "OOC: Some players may notice the ravaging effects of a disease going through the city, the disease is scripted to spread on its own. Its part of a plot that has been running for some time, so have fun with it" may have helped a great deal if something like this happens again in the future.

This thread makes me sad. Because from what I saw on the server, the reason the majority of people were unhappy with the plague was that it interfered with their routine of questing and leveling under a thin veil of RP. At first I found un-infected characters didn't RP with me. They didn't talk, they didn't even they acknowledge my existence because an IRL fear of getting the plague and losing stats. This plague thing could have been amazing, if the players had done more with as opposed to complain and whine, because thats all I've heard off people I've talked to.

Every word is golden, Oro.

Cluckyx This thread makes me sad. Because from what I saw on the server, the reason the majority of people were unhappy with the plague was that it interfered with their routine of questing and leveling under a thin veil of RP.

I think you are misreading my post - I was concerned with how it was being handled, and that it didn't make any sense to me in terms of my understanding of FR magic (divine and arcane). I didn't mention disruption to routine - I think you are seeing what you want to see, in this post.

Cluckyx This plague thing could have been amazing, if the players had done more with as opposed to complain and whine, because thats all I've heard off people I've talked to.

Good choice of words. Could. Could have been amazing, if it had been run a little more even-handedly.

Be that as it may, I see little relevance of your claims of whining, to this thread. I haven't complained and didn't intend to - you are the first to whine on this thread.

A little more chance to avoid the disease in other words, with a slightly less exorberant DC. If divine magic didn't stop the disease, but divine immunities still applied--give some IC hints on that--but I'll be honest it seemed a stretch when paladins walked around immune but high level priests couldn't put a dent in it.

People need to prostrate themselves before Moander!

Seriously though, this isn't any old plague. It's a specific one. The very high DC reflects the specific kind of plague it is. This plague wasn't designed to be easily or even moderately resisted. Furthermore, paladins are granted perpetual immunity to disease from their patron deity. They don't pick it up because they never had a chance to i.e they were never actually exposed to it. The plague also has a specific source for the cure, tied into the plot. That's why Level 5 clerics can't cure it.

Uninfected people not rping with you is actually a hugely reasonable result , when you say rping you mean talking. The old saying "avoiding you like you've got the plague" comes to mind here :D

And considering the disease is not invisible, you SEE the flies, you can instantly see somebod infected with it and likely people want to steer clear.

I liked the whole theme of it, you're right it does make any sort of combat after being infected pointless (with -4 hp per die some people end up with often 8 hp per level less) . Which is reasonable considering the virulence of it. I especially liked the desperation and pleas for curing , snake oil salesmen around the town hall.

There is the minor problems of the NPC's not getting it , and the beleivability of no-one actually dieing from it (though there may be IC reasons for this as well as the OOC unfairness thing)

Theres also a number of "afflictions" that paladins CAN get that arent diseases, they're curses.. But since paladins and level 5 monks do resist it then it's a disease, however difficult it is to cure.

Frors I think you are misreading my post - I was concerned with how it was being handled, and that it didn't make any sense to me in terms of my understanding of FR magic (divine and arcane). I didn't mention disruption to routine - I think you are seeing what you want to see, in this post.

This was more in response to Oro's post

chaosprism Uninfected people not rping with you is actually a hugely reasonable result , when you say rping you mean talking. The old saying "avoiding you like you've got the plague" comes to mind here :D

And considering the disease is not invisible, you SEE the flies, you can instantly see somebod infected with it and likely people want to steer clear.

It wasn't just this, even people with the plague were just randomly running round, barely bothering to stay in character just looking for a cure. I know you will say thats what they will do. But they were doing with with completely OOC intentions.

The logic there MadCaddies isn't convincing.

I know what you're saying, but you didn't address what I said at all.

You can have all the in character explanations you want. The trouble wasn't in character, the trouble was that out of character this wasn't fun for many players and I can see why. I can't say I hated it, my character just left town when the plague broke out and avoided people. By the time he came back to town and caught the plague, I was lucky enough someone had found the cure.

However, OOC I think it the entire thing could have been handled better, and saying "everything that happened OOC happened because of IC decisions on how the plague was specific and worked and foiled divine magic was IC" isn't actually a response to the simple fact that OOC it could have been done differently than it was and I tried to make a few honest suggestions on what could have been different. They aren't suggestions I pulled out of my butt, I've run these kinds of "disease" plots in the past and learned from player complaints that there is a way to do them and a way not to do them from LARPS to NWN PWs. Disease plots are fun, but you need to be careful in how you do them to keep them fun.

I'll admit, had I known less of what was going on-had I been infected right away with no DM on so I could go to the source of the plague and do something about it, I'd have been seriously disappointed in the plot too. And I knew the source, the cause, where to find the guy starting it and didn't even catch it until someone had the cure to hand me five minutes later.

I have to agree with Oro's post especially in regards to new players. Picture it you come to a server youve never been to before create a charecter come into sanctuary and within 5 min of walking through the front gate youre infected and youre guy just losses 4 to 12 hp (about half the amount) and yes it is an rp server but if your new to it that is going to come across as extreme and off putting especially when they find it is nigh on impossible for most clerics to remove. So maybe next time (if there is one) make script the diseas so it dosent affect lvl 1 and 2 maybe even 3 charecters.

I just want to note that I think everyone agrees it could have been handled better, but that it occured the way it did for a variety of OOC reasons and that we're trying to make the best of the situation now that it has happened.

I havn't been on the server alot these past few days, but I have heard alot of the plague, and last night when I logged, just about everyone I saw IC had it. Dilandau's description is very true, considering I actully caught a glimpse of one or two new players. If the plague is still around (remember I havn't been on alot recently, I'm not sure if the cure is common-found or still rare) then would it be possible to lower the DC value since having found a cure the divine power behind the disease may be weakining as the god/goddess behind it won't put as much effort into the plague since a cure has been found, or if the cure IS common, have an NPC in the town hall or another sutable location handing out the cure in whatever form it comes in, if only to make the plague slightly easier on new players, not to mention that quests and the like do not have the effects of the plague in mind when made.

but I'll be honest it seemed a stretch when paladins walked around immune but high level priests couldn't put a dent in it.
There are a few things to take into account here though, one, this is a low-level server, although lvl 6-8 may be considered high level, in a global effect of FR it isn't. Secondly, it's possible for uncurable diseases to exist but for some not to be affected by it, after all, uncurable diseases exsist in real life, but sharks, being immune to all known diseases, still won't suffer from it. Thirdly, I'm not sure about this one, so feel free to correct me, but remove disease as a cleric spell is only intended to remove mundane and low-magic diseases, not powerful plagues.

traditional plague day: -log in, -walk out the crone, -ask that man around the door why he has flies around him, -fail a disease dc -take a cure, -plague script gets triggered after cure is taken so cure is wasted, -curse a lot, -buy another cure, -is broke. -log off.

Mort,

Now wasn't that a wonderful and fun RP experience?

I have to say it made no sense to me at all that lesser restoration, a 2nd lv spell, could "heal" you back to your normal con score yet remove disease, which is a 3rd lv spell, did nothing. Mort said he bought a number of cures before going broke. Maybe the disease should have been curable by magical means, yet still remain highly contageious? The clerics/paladins would have been overwhelmed by the number of victims, providing a chance for players to create a quarentene zone for the plague to burn itself out. It's how things were done in history, set up a "pest tent" etc, house the plaguevictims there [by force if necessary] and let the "do-gooders" heal them.

Also paladins. Why was their immunity strong than their ability to cure? Their power comes from their god, all of it. Remove disease is their divine gift as well as immunity. Seems a bit inconsistent from my perspective.

Talwyn Why was their immunity strong than their ability to cure? Their power comes from their god, all of it. Remove disease is their divine gift as well as immunity. Seems a bit inconsistent from my perspective.

*shrugs*

"very good IC reasons" - according to MadCaddies

Like I said, it makes no sense to me, and since there's nothing I can do aside from swat flies - I'll wait for this to blow over before logging on again.

Oroborous

On one last point, I really really hope a new player didn't log into the server for the first time yesterday. If a plot that heavy handed, that so few players likely realized was coming, and that approached that quickly and hit when no DM was on to help all the panicing players (let alone their panicing characters) there really needs to be a Journal entry to at least give a quick explanation of what's going on. Even a simple "OOC: Some players may notice the ravaging effects of a disease going through the city, the disease is scripted to spread on its own. Its part of a plot that has been running for some time, so have fun with it" may have helped a great deal if something like this happens again in the future.

I'm a new player and I logged on during the spread of the plague for my first time, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. Someone told me right off the bat to get a helm from a location, my character decided to rely on his faith to protect him. In other words I OOC made a decision knowing full well that my character would probably get the plague because it suited his character.

As I understand it this is a game, an adventure game at that, you're put into character in a dangerous and unpredictable world. I didn't come to this server looking for handouts or an easy situation, I came for a challenging experience.

I hope there were others who enjoyed themselves as well, otherwise I may not understand the reasoning behind some of the players being on an RP server in this setting.

well, im oversimplifiying, cause I did do more than that, and I did like the "idea" of the plague as an "observer", watching people fight eachothers in a rathole for a cure (as in a movie), is entertaining, but living it is something totally different.

Just try to do something concrete in a server with the plague unleashed, it just delays any goal your character might have, and screw up their thin line developmental curve. As a level 5 character, you dont have the resources to do much.. I mean most high levels were pissed about it and usually have the gold to fix things up, but at a low level?

I tried to do something that sounded like fun, and it was; handed up dying, but meh, since I'm at a low level, I wasnt too pissed about it, but yeah- it was a tough situation to deal with.

well personally, i thought it was great - it has it's flaws, but give the dm's a break I've never seen any other servers that go through such effort to script a plague. I suppose this is the first time this has happened - of course it isn't going to be perfect.

I think its been done quite well - the way it's been spread - we're talking about a plague here. Real plagues in history killed off people quickly and few people survived. We're lucky that all our characters aren't dead :p

Actually, I will be very frank here.

I think some, if not many, are disappointed that they cannot hack through a plague like they can hack through monsters in an invasion or quests. And that the fact that some people decided to kill those offering the cure made getting cured even harder.

You have to remember that your characters, plagued, are dying, and that you are the Faerun settings. I was rather annoyed at seeing all those characters not willing to pray to a god.

Gods in Faerun are a very present force. Praying to an evil god is more than common, for they rule most and many aspects of your daily lives. You surely don't want to get on their bad side.

And last and foremost, look at the rumour tread.

I see it from a different perspective. When people are desperate and paranoid, they're apt to do things you wouldn't think are reasonable. I hear some of them may have formed an angry mob and tried to kill those "smug bastards" who said they had the cure. It isn't about a hack and slash mentality, I think it's entirely reasonable that people would resort to such measures in such a situation.

edit: Though in fairness my character did visit the sick ward outside the gates and suggested that the ill offer a prayer to Moander, and he isn't a Moanderite or evil.

I dont want to get into any spoilers, but there no reason a character should believe what one person has to say over another.

I think all the responses that players did were right on the ball RP wise, from assaulting the cure offerers to scoffing to outright begging. It was all there and great to see, well done all I think.

I can't say I'm particularly surprised to see the criticism, and I certainly do acknowledge some valid points but I will say that frankly the way some PCs (or, rather, players) have reacted has been something of a disappointment for me.

(1) The honest truth is that the plague was unleashed when I was away for the day and in a way that wasn't planned for - entirely to due to the actions of Pcs behaving in an unanticipated way. The nature of plots are that they never go the way DMs plan them, and so a lot of the time we have to react on our feet and/or get super busy with things. This is both good in that we're trying to make a fluid, 24/7 world where players have a huge impact on things, and bad in that characters making certain choices can de-rail things and/or result in things happening that isn't desirable.

(2) People decided the only way to "solve" this plot would be to hack their way through everything and just kill everything, which was just foolish and totally detrimental. I don't mind it at all from an OOC perspective, but the result will unfortunately result in more hardship for the town.

(3) These sort of things do depend on any particular character, but I'd be nice for some characters (non-clerics, for instance) to remember that the canon setting of the Forgotten Realms is one in which multiple deities are acknowledged beyond a character's patron deity. Sailors praying to Umberlee to prevent storms, Beshaba at weddings, and so on. Again, characters seemed to behave in a manner that just seemed puzzling to me and a little reliant on a DM's sense of mercy to ensure that it'd "all work out" in the end.

When someone takes hostages, the first reaction generally isn't to storm the hostage takers straight away -- generally there's a period of negotiation -- in EfU, we'd describe this as roleplay. Storming the hostage-takers may well be a necessary act, but unfortunately the end result of this action by PCs so prematurely has resulted in a much longer period of the plague being so devastating.

(4) Sanctuary is awash with clerics, making this plague easily cured by a simple spell would be incredibly pointless. As it is, clerics have plenty to do by removing stat drain and tending to people's sickness as well as just RP'ing helping people. I'd find the RP opportunities in this position to be much better than a "plague" that was for most Pcs just a "very minor annoyance." There are both IC and OOC reasons for this mechanics decision.

I mean really, two clerics with maxed out remove disease could practically cure all of Sanctuary instantly on their own.

(5) The people who are uptight about the fact that a dead god is (apparently) involved... no comment.

(6) Although I agree our implementation wasn't fantastic, if you as a player feel the best thing to do is just to log off entirely and try to ignore this plague and the RP possibilities it presents, I'm really not sure this is the best server for you.

Thanks everyone for the comments, I honestly really do appreciate it and would welcome more constructive criticism throughout the course of the plot or even at the end of the plot.

Mort Just try to do something concrete in a server with the plague unleashed, it just delays any goal your character might have, and screw up their thin line developmental curve.

Goal your character has, or goal you have for your character? Don't you ever have setbacks in your life and have to deal with them? Out of curiosity, what is a "developmental curve"?

Why not just play the game in it's setting and let your character develop?

I didn't really mind the plot, there were some times when I felt helpless to do anything, but that was about it.

Then again, I wasn't much on last night when most of the crap was happening.

One possible remedy to the pain some characters were feeling OOC, was to grade the effects based on the character's level.

So newbies (level 1-3) would still get it, spread it, but it wouldnt drain their con to 3.. it would drop it maybe 2-4 points. Leaving the full force RP effects to the veterans. This would still give the newbies the ability to run low level scripted quest and gain xp if that is their wish. They can still of course RP with the rest of the group if thats their wish to.

In the end the disease is a RP tool, to be treated by players (and D.m's) as they see fit.

I really enjoyed myself. Besides having one char trying to help another char out. And I also had my rarely played Paladain out in Lower handing out plague helms to the poor. Much fun.

Some of the OOC discussion during the plague was quite disheartening. Specifically how it interfered with 'questing'. These people need to reexamine why they are here. This is a dynamic PW. Unusual things happen on a regular basis. Some that require real thought and roleplaying skill. And where some saw OOC rules issues, others saw IC just how terrible the plague was. To these others, Kudos. Rather than question the OOC mechanics, you interacted with your surroundings to deal with the situation as best you could. Keep up the good work.

jstrudwick

Goal your character has, or goal you have for your character? Don't you ever have setbacks in your life and have to deal with them? Out of curiosity, what is a "developmental curve"? Why not just play the game in it's setting and let your character develop?

I thought I was proactive about it, since I was part of the group that discovered the 'true cure', and the underlying cause of the plague!

developmental curve is the network of relationships you establish, people running away from you because you have the plague tends to prevent that, it did have great opportunies once you were cured, but I was lucky enough to be cured, and try to do something about with my 14hps.

but what pissed me off most, wasnt the plague itself, cause some friends handed me a cure seconds after I contracted it in login in the server: it was the lagged script that messed it up, because I contracted the plague, 2min after failing the disease dc, and 1min after drinking the cure... so I was more pissed off at the mechanics, then the plot itself, having to buy two cures at the exhorbiting price of 700coins, because of lag was the point I didnt like, but that's obviously out of anyone's control, and I didnt whine to the dms IG about it.

Howland (3) These sort of things do depend on any particular character, but I'd be nice for some characters (non-clerics, for instance) to remember that the canon setting of the Forgotten Realms is one in which multiple deities are acknowledged beyond a character's patron deity. Sailors praying to Umberlee to prevent storms, Beshaba at weddings, and so on. Again, characters seemed to behave in a manner that just seemed puzzling to me and a little reliant on a DM's sense of mercy to ensure that it'd "all work out" in the end.

The polytheistic belief system only applies to certain characters - not all. For example, a hard-core Uthgardt barbarian shouldn't be kneeling to any gods other than Uthgar, Tempus or perhaps a nature god. Also, a fanatical Talos worshipper wouldn't offer prayers to a dead god that claims the same portfolio as his living god (though it could very well be Talos who is masquerading as the dead god - that's common enough). And I can't see how it makes sense that a holier-than-thou Helm or Hoar worshipper would be offering prayers to an obviously evil god.

As far as I know, the only sources of the cure potion were from sources that are not acceptable to all PCs. Perhaps offering some cure potions via more neutral individuals would help?

If I am missing something here, please correct me. It's just how I see it. I've been wrong many times before.

Howland When someone takes hostages, the first reaction generally isn't to storm the hostage takers straight away -- generally there's a period of negotiation -- in EfU, we'd describe this as roleplay. Storming the hostage-takers may well be a necessary act, but unfortunately the end result of this action by PCs so prematurely has resulted in a much longer period of the plague being so devastating.

No argument about the IC consequences of their actions - but it does make sense. If you look at current American doctorine, they don't negotiate with terrorists, and all but cut off displomatic relations with all of those they consider to be aiding terrorists. If professionals who are considering real world consequesces are willing to act rashly to threats, how is it that players are expected to react differently?

Howland (6) Although I agree our implementation wasn't fantastic, if you as a player feel the best thing to do is just to log off entirely and try to ignore this plague and the RP possibilities it presents, I'm really not sure this is the best server for you.

Sorry, but I am not sure I understand your point here. For those involved in the plot or capable of doing something about it (cleric, paladin especially - or someone who can get involved in the plot IC-wise) - sure. But let's say you're playing a mid level fighter - you can't cure anyone as you have no spells - you can't do anything about it because you have 4 or 5 HP - so you're pretty much stuck in the inn vomiting on the floor and picking your sores, hoping that it will end soon. Go anywhere vaguely dangerous and your standard rat could kill you.

Maybe it's just me, but emoting being sick isn't a great RP experience in my books - and not even being able to turn to priests because all your gold is locked up in the bank that is closed, really puts a dampener on things. Again, if I am missing something here, I'm open to suggestions.

Howland Thanks everyone for the comments, I honestly really do appreciate it and would welcome more constructive criticism throughout the course of the plot or even at the end of the plot.

Plot-wise, it's grand. Mechanics-wise, I think it needs some work. Nothing I can't add for mechanics which Orobus hasn't already said, though.

Staring_Death and Howland have already beat me to posting what I'd more or less have said in this forum, however -- coming from the opinion of someone who spent a considerable amount of time and energy advertising a plague, and also participating in several events related to this plot, I share the frustrations many of you do.

There were a few big goofs in the plot the caused premature eruption, much to the dismay of myself and a few others. What disheartens me the most though I guess was the 2nd point Howland addressed in his post.

While we, the cultists who advertised this plot heavily knew that our health was in pretty large danger in offering a cure to the afflicted, we did so anyways mostly out of courtesy for those who would have no idea what was going on. Like newbs who were infected. It's a shame some of these things got so screwy - and that some of these effects will likely be prolonged due to recent IC actions.

Maybe some more thoughts on the topic later, that's all I've got for now.

Yep. As Howland and wcsherry said, and as the player of a cultist, I can tell you all that the IG actions of several PCs made dealing with the plague much harder. I think a lot of people thought this was just a regular DM quest that could be solved simply by putting a big party together and going and killing the bad guys, not realizing this was actually a very bad idea. But bad idea or not, I thought it was hilarious to watch everyone running around in a panic. IT'S NOT REAL. WE ARE ALL CHARACTERS IN A SORT OF EVER-CHANGING PLAY. I try to look at set backs the same way as boons. It's all good for the story.

I want to thank the players for working hard to do something that was exciting and significant. I'm sure it's a lot of work OOCly and ICly to get stuff like that done. Like Breen and his spiders. It makes the server larger than life, and in my case, creates greater immersion.

Hopefully all suggestions are pointed at, "Cool, but here's how it could have been better."

It did kill some RP for my character, because it was hard having a dwarven prayer moot while everyone was sick. But it was a powerful image nonetheless, and therefore memorable.

We seem to remember the very bad, and the very good. It leaves a stronger impression on us, and thus dredges up more powerful feelings and emotions. In my few months here, I've noticed that the really effective stuff elicits all kinds of reactions.

We have to work hard, even concsiously hard to not let our OOC reactions/emotions interfere with our character's RP. At least this is true in my case, and I suspect in other newer characters.

My only suggestion would be for this disease to be contracted unbeknownst to the character, and have an incubation period of a few RL weeks. Then, when they started manifesting it, people would have started going down into a coma or even died. That would have created a tremendous panic - which would be cool - and you'd see people working their asses off to find a cure if it developed fairly slowly but was unstoppable. The PCs involved could have even made alts that contracted the disease first, and came into the community and spread it for weeks.

Characters would have said, "Oh crap! I talked to that guy, or I healed him with herbs and got his blood on me." :twisted:

Kudos to those that brought it on. I think the fast and debilitating nature of it was a bit of a hindrance to all characters but those that acted on it, but it was well worth the inconveniance for the sake that it was a change and it was server wide. Like Maalgor, Breen's spiders and similar events.

But as is always the case with opinions, none are wrong, and I can easily see why it sucked for some. We had a significant plot event for the Stouthearts that was overshadowed greatly by it. Thanks to Caddies for playing along with it as well.

I love the Plague. My character would be -nothing- without it. It's opened up so many possibilities. It really makes everythign a whole lot better, and has improved RP. It's actually made my character what i wanted him to be, because without such a thing for him to act for, he would have just been generic. Yay plague!

A NPC has been implemented to help you folks out now, thanks to Howland and me.

Now, be happy. It's an order.

I just want to say that I had a great time. Sure some mechanics may be weird or poorly handled. But IG I had a great time. There was a sense of urgancy, especially if you got the plague yourself. What I found fascinating was the effect of our actions. Both IG and here in the forum, it seems what we did to help didnt help at all, in some minds at least. We did what we thought was right and we did make some progress. It is kinda interesting and developmental for a character to think they are doing a great good, for what ever motives they might have, only to come home and find their actions not really well recieved. I found the actions of many quite humerous. Some people were completely unphased by the event. I believe it was Kotenku that pointed out a funny conversation in IRC.

"Wow, this plague is terrible."

"Sure is, hey lets go kill trogs."

A great touch was having a guard here or there wearing those helmets. It seemed that as time went by more and more NPCs were wearing them. What I did find very funny is something I've seen before. Everyone wants to be the guy that solves the problem, so no one listens to each other. I think that is gold. Because it is a reflection of things I know in the real world, like at work. It helps make things real. Another great aspect were people auctioning off bottles of cure at greatly inflated prices. Like they were Xbox 360s on ebay. With that came the snake oil salesmen. Taking money for a cure, and doing something silly like using herbs on a person and then runnning off.

Firstly, I feel apologies are in order for anyone who didn't enjoy playing EfU during the event in question. It is not in any of our interests to make EfU less fun for anyone, and every measure the EfU DM team takes is in the interests of general server happiness. Since it seems there's a great deal of disagreement on whether or not it was fun, I view it as unacceptable, as only a vast majority of approval can justify the long term effects of any given event (note, long term effects, and not the event itself. You may not like it if there's an Earthquake and several people die, yet in the long term the event may have purpose as fun for all).

This disapproval has been recognised, and again, my apologies to those of you that have genuine and valid reasons for finding this event unsatisfactory.

However, as noted by several DMs before me, I was incredibly disappointed with how some people responded. Making quests unavailable for you is not in any way a reason for you to dislike an event on a role play server. I know that I can go days or even weeks (And have done on EfU, and no, you don't smell any bullshit) without questing and still enjoy myself with tavern talk, plotting, scheming and general skullduggery. For you then to find the server boring just because you can't click on red-glowing NPCs and watch little yellow numbers appear in your system window is a demonstration of just how wanting your imagination is. Clearly, you will be happier on an Arena or Action server where this sort of thing happens constantly and where I'm sure you've the option to light RP it (or not RP it at all, as some of you do, or should I say, don't, here), and I implore you to play on such a server so that you may be happy and find fulfillment in the collecting of lots of exp, whilst those who find fulfillment in the telling of a good story can do so in peace, without feeling cheated by being killed by those with absurd levels, stats or nonsensical builds.

All criticism is welcome, but if you try to found your critique of EfU on your desire to do what is manifestly subersive to the idea of the server, I will not find you terribly convincing. Infact, I'll even go through the trouble of finding you an action server and releasing you into it, so that you may run wild and free through the fields of exp and be content.

My thanks to everyone that took this on the chin or those of you that mustered intelligent reasons for your disapproval.

and i really should point out that even dropping hp should be no reason to you from doing things. an example would be that me and a bunch of others went on a quest in the underdark looking for those mushrooms and out of the 5 man party three of us were infected *heck my seventh lvl rogue was down to 24 hp for half of it* but we still got by fine what i guess im trying to say is yes the plague can be annoying but it is in no way debilitating. Also you can still avoid the plague without logging from the server for the duration of it one can simply go somewhere the plague hasent reached (which in itself presented interesting rp opertunites that i dont usually get)

I've got to say, I know the Realms is polytheistic, rarely clerics are henotheistic, but I'm not aware of any real majority of people being necrotheistic (worshipping dead gods with any real regularity) so I can't believe its too shocking no one took threats of a dead god cursing a city with a plague very seriously, especially when the threats were only backed up by a silly little guy posting and writing a lot of letters, and not by say--a brief and ravaging endemic that leaves citizens flustered and ill which halts mysteriously at the last moment. So I don't think players took the build up at all seriously, because and this makes sense--the characters wouldn't have taken it very seriously either.

Remember, even Bane's own loyalists had given up on him until Xchivm exploded. Why would people who have had decades to get use to Moander's death have thought for a second he was going to pop up again? So player/character shock there seems reasonable.

I know I didn't view the plague as bump in my hack and slash power questing sessions--Dungal hasn't done a scripted quest for weeks.

Limiting clerics ability to affect the plague can certainly make sense for the reasons Howland mentioned; but take this as a suggestion for the future--it needs to make more sense. A second level spell removes the effects of the disease, but a third level spell didn't do anything? At the very least, the third level spell should have had the same effect as the third with a server message stating "Your spell helps heal their body, but you sense the disease remained behind because of its unholy magical nature" or something.

Now its feasible Moander wasn't behind the plague, could have been Cyric or Mystra or a Demon or Andy Warhohl--but and this is always a problem with plots--did the players really have a fair shot and seeing it coming? I'd point out that in my experience you can spend weeks telling players on the forum and in game that an army of dragons is decending on the campaign and still some people miss it.

From that, I've determined that a Journal Update of rumors is a positive thing. In the past I've seen servers make a Rumor Database that DMs can put topics into, then local Commoners speak the various rumors. That may offset the complaint of some that reacted poorly to the plague not because they're poor roleplayers but because they felt sideswiped by it. Its just like the level 20 paladin taken down by a level 6 evil cleric in PvP not because of anything IC, but because OOC the level 20 player just didn't react and was too shocked ooc to handle it.

Now I didn't log off to avoid this plot. My character instead avoided people on the streets, when he realized how bad it was he tried to organize some response, when that didn't work, he left the city and managed to return to check things and learned someone found the cure. I can't say I reacted poorly to the event; but I do see some really positive ways to improve how similar wide scale events can be handled in the future.

Stop beating the horse. It's dead : (

Calculor Stop beating the horse. It's dead : (

Actually, I had some new ideas there but now you've rained on my parade. I'm going to go cry somewhere. :)

Well, the plot is carrying on. I'm not sure why people keep on using the past tense.

My point about a world where many deities are worshiped is that I think at least -some- characters would say, "Praise Moander" in exchange for a cure that was being offered to them, free of charge.

All the stuff that led up to it I totally agree I don't think anyone would take seriously, it's more a few events I saw where it seemed people's characters were kind of stick in the kill-mode. Although, as Cabre pointed out I can also imagine many characters would just be completely desperate and prone to mob-violence.

just to add another 3 cents.

I think one of the main points Oro had is great: Some kind of journal update/rumours message in game to give players (Especially newbies) an idea of what was going on so they don't freak out.

AS for the rest of this discussion. I loved the plague. It gave me a great reason to log in with Nirav, spend 500 gold buying plenty of cures (in retrospect he should have bought more) and then handing them out to all he saw infected, along with a Plague Helm if the character didn't own one. It gave him plenty of purpose as an Ilmaterian, he preached about not bowing down to Moander but trusting that Ilmater would heal all those with patience. Plus he got to interact with one or two newbies and do exactly what the OOC mechanics reccomendation above would have done: explain to them what was going on, thrust a plague helm on them and tell them to keep their faith in Ilmater even if they contract it.

In short: great RP experience (considering I hadn't logged in for quite a while), but obviously because of the nature of my particular character.

Also adding, it appears that an explanation for the plague has appeared in our journals.

So that's that problem solved.

I have mixed feelings about the plague.

First, I think the plague unleashed by DM Howland and company was a very creative idea. It's nice to keep us players on our toes.

Second, I think the spread of the plague was badly mishandled. The plague had an incredibly high DC, and you could very easily get reinfected just by passing by an infected person. It was also quite boring to those not involved in the "Find the Cure" plot.

I was actually with the party in the "Find the Cure" plot, but the party leader kicked me out because he was a paladin and I was neutral evil. God damn that annoyed me a lot, OOC and IC.

Desperate times require desperate alliances. Dungeons and Dragons is full of unholy alliances; the Kingpriest of Istar and Fistandantilus, Raistlin and Chrysania, etc.

you can make some nice coin on selling cures you buy from *spoiler* i've made about 300 alrady :P :P .

I like the plague. It's about time the city got sick from all the weak, travel-worn malnourished ex-slaves showing up. One of them was bound to have something contagious.

It gives the server a tougher feel. Keep it.

Thanks to the DMs.

I think all my concerns have been addressed. Hopefully we can have some fun with it, now that the majority of the mechanics issues have been dealt with.

Cheers.

Overall, the plague has been a fun experience for me. Having infected some of my new alts (and having little devloped personalities to RP with), I went to my "big guy" Sven, and am having a grand time! Thankfully he ran into fellow dwarves, who warned him of the disease, and together they hid out in the saftey of Tornbeard Hall. Never before were such suspicions, fears, and xenophobia expressed so well. We trusted few, and stayed far from Sanctuary, asking all who we came in contact with if they were plagued (thankfully all seemed nice and truthful) and fleeing from the sick (ever see a combined 300+ hp run like little girls from a single gnome?). Overall, very fun- we talked, planned, and even tooled around a little beyond dark lake where we figured we would be even further from the sickness.

Some notes from the experience: -Good idea with the "State of Sanctuary" journal post, make that a feature all the time maybe? -The DC is high, but I find that to be a good thing- its a plague after all. -What are we going to do with all these free helms? They may be ugly, but +4 to a disease save is good no matter what. -Thanks to all the profiteers who are scamming people in the confusion, there is some serious gold to be made and I love it. -Maybe close up some NPCs? Seems like Norma, the Rock Bottom, and every "visitor" (Dugear, Goblin, Kobold, ect) might not want the plagued running around them, and would either flee to some "home" outside town, or simply close up shop and hole up for the duration. This might also help slow people trying to quest around it like nothing is going on.

Overall, very fun and a nice global effect to shake up Sanctuary. I look forward to more events down the line.

tib

-Maybe close up some NPCs? Seems like Norma, the Rock Bottom, and every "visitor" (Dugear, Goblin, Kobold, ect) might not want the plagued running around them, and would either flee to some "home" outside town, or simply close up shop and hole up for the duration. This might also help slow people trying to quest around it like nothing is going on.

I like this idea. In fact maybe even some NPC should die? After all, not every adventurer managed to get the cure or those rat shaped helms, so it leads you to think that somepoor NPC merchants etc, wouldn't have had the chance or money etc to get themselves safe. It would be "Thinning the herd" as someone mentioned? :twisted:

I enjoyed the plague tremendously. Whether trying to find out what was going on, while my constitution went down, down, down, made the day very interesting. Shame I had to log off and work before going to bed though.

I have only been on EFU for a short time, but I thought it did bring people together, except those that hid away. It made folk more willing to talk to a neighbor instead of heading off to a quest.

Good show.

Oroborous Now its feasible Moander wasn't behind the plague, could have been Cyric or Mystra or a Demon or Andy Warhohl--but and this is always a problem with plots--did the players really have a fair shot and seeing it coming?
I can tell you with full certainty that

YES

there were indeed some PCs who had the opportunity to figure out what was going on. I think the players in question know who they are and realize their (IC) mistakes now. This plot has been going on for months now, though I admit, at times not very actively. (And that fact is mostly due to the plague having been difficult to script, even in its present, flawed form.) Still, there definitely was a time when all of this could not only have been predicted or taken seriously beforehand, but could have been prevented altogether.

I spent the last few hours in RP related to the plague with one of my characters, and found it all very enjoyable - even without any DM-supplied questing to do.

In other words, thanks to whoever worked/is working on the plague plot, the rough edges got worked off quickly, it got people's attention fast, and definitely feels like it's more than just "rp fluff."

My interaction with the plague was possibly unique, and amusing because of it.

First, Amothiewien was immune to it - completely - and so she tried to help. The module updated, and then she couldn't be cured of it - and so I logged off.

I'd've liked to have been a part of the plot, but as it stands, I'm waiting for it to be over with so I can log her back in and RP without having to deal with a stat drain and disease that just aren't curable on the character (and yes, I know the cures to use. No, they haven't worked - the same bugs that made her immune to it, most likely) and would kill them in - if the 4 stat drain in a minute was any judge - about 3 minutes total.

That said, the normal thing looks pretty good. My main concern was that, as usual, in Euro times no one seemed to have much idea what was going on, even with the city officials, and so we got a much more haphazard reaction to the plague.

Argent Gish

I was actually with the party in the "Find the Cure" plot, but the party leader kicked me out because he was a paladin and I was neutral evil. God damn that annoyed me a lot, OOC and IC.

Desperate times require desperate alliances. Dungeons and Dragons is full of unholy alliances; the Kingpriest of Istar and Fistandantilus, Raistlin and Chrysania, etc.

Obviously the paladin wasn't so desperate, and they made the right decision. Taking along the evil person would have just made for advancing the evil person, and for some likely chaos points for the paladin for breaking their code.

I think the plague actually started in Euro times, I only got to witness the start of it and have missed the rest unfortunately. There's something wrong with my game at the moment, and it has been hard to log in.

The disease won't kill you. You'll never drop below 3 con

But some other effect might stack to put your con below that :)

You can still die at 3 con with the low HP classes. Take, say, a mage - averaging 3 HP a level with the dice, and 3 con makes for -4 HP per level from con.

You won't die from the plague alone unless you take damage from something else, and if you stumble upon a bug it'd be better to bug report it and contact a DM IG to investigate.

Mornington Crescent You can still die at 3 con with the low HP classes. Take, say, a mage - averaging 3 HP a level with the dice, and 3 con makes for -4 HP per level from con.

No, you can not.

Excuse me, but I made a post about free plague cures. Was it deleted?

If it was, it was probably because that counts as a spoiler Something people have to find out ingame

I really like the plague. I think it's rather well done and an interesting idea.

The only thing I would have done differently would have been to change the plague wards. Instead of that ugly helm that everyone seems to have now, a ring blessed by a priest of Talona in the area (+4 against disease, -1 or 2 to constitution). I have a feeling that people are going to be using them for a while after this plot is over...

That's really been my only complaint about the whole thing.

I like the "gas masks" it's like being in a chemical spill, or gas attack :) And much more visual impact to it, than any other item you may wear that wont show up.

The only other thing you could do would be to have a particular cloak though it doesnt make sense that this would protect you from the plague.

The helm was the best choice.

I like the Helmets the beaks look like the classic Space Marine helmets from 40k. Long May they continue.

The masks are meant to look like the plague masks from during the black plague. It was ori9ginally thought that disease was casued by bad smells, so the apocathery wore the mask with sweet smelling herbs that would supposedly counteract the disease.

No. I believe it was so that they could better mimick the bird's agility in avoiding ground-born diseases.

A suggestion; stop the wandering plague victims hanging around near transitions. For people trying to avoid being infected, they make it near impossible

I agree with mornington, but admittedly, there's nothing to make you jump than opening a door and finding a victim thats got trapped behind it.

The plague came up on my first day. At first, I marvelled at the script. Then, my character felt miserable for infecting people in the city of her last hope, her first day of freedom and she was already dooming people to pain and suffering by simply being alive. From there on, it spiraled down into depression, every time she managed to get her hands on a cure, she'd try to help someone, and get infected again.

Then, things started looking up, cures became more common. She was able to help more people with less fear of spreading the illness herself if she contracted it. Discomfort to ease the sufferings of others, no feat too big for Ilmater's faithful. Then, she realized, by leaving the comforts and safety of the city to help others who lived a less fortunet life in the forgotten corners of Sanctuary and in the small shreds of civilization out in the middle of nowhere, she could altogether avoid the plague and the suffering, while still lending people a helping hand.

The plague began with despair, and it eventually bloomed into the motivating factor that helped good deeds to be accomplished, not just for her, but for other faithful servants of the gods as well.

I do feel that it's a little on the agressive side, and since people see it so much it's lost it's impact that it initially had. Now, no one but the Paladins have escaped it, everyone's had it at some point or another so it's something they've learned to live with. It's an annoyance that can be written off with a visit to the doctor (or shady back-alley merchant), and now the only people who are suffering are new players, who either recieve help, or don't.

One new player my character helped today took 3 cures and touched the crystal twice, and still was not cured. When she had finally given up hope and my character was ready to go with her into exile, the plague simply poofed.

So, while the plague is promoting many good things, it's really coming close to a point where the plot needs to run its course, or new players will continue to suffer while those accustomed to it stop caring. In my opinion.

Mornington Crescent A suggestion; stop the wandering plague victims hanging around near transitions. For people trying to avoid being infected, they make it near impossible

As I have noticed a proliferation of said victims(npc type) perhaps spreading it is their purpose? Too perhaps motivate all to work on a cure? Just a thought..

Here's an idea.

What if you built up an immunity or strengthened your resistance to the disease each time you contract it?

Like maybe..... each time a character contracts the plague and is healed, the DC lowers to contract it the next time? Like -4 each time? Then it wouldn't be QUITE so tedious and hinder some RP when everyone is buying a cure, gettting cured, getting sick. I found that RP loop a bit annoying, but tolerable.

Is this a scripting Beeeyatch? It would make for a greater diversity of PC responses. Healers and good aligned might choose to risk it. Selfish characters could make a clearer act that they didnt want to risk it.

Just a thought - although of course it's possible due to the nature of the disease that one couldn't build up a resistance.

I also think the CON modification should have a greater influence on this, but that's just

Or how about your face turns to goo and you die horribly!

am pretty sure for IG reasons a DC decrease/resistance would be out of the question.

I agree with iso's post. We should let the plague plot finish soon. BUT.

When it finishes is entirely up to us. It is up to us to make the plague to go away, as opposed to sitting on our asses and waiting for the DM's to through an exceptionally obvious bone. One of the things I like about this server, is that the DM's don't lead you by the hand. If you screw up you face the concequences. This plague won't go away until the PC's decide to take the initiative. Usually this server is pretty good, but a lot of people, when faced with something they don't fully understand, are reverting to their old crys for spoonfed the plot.

Come on guys, we're better than this!

The plague will end when it is IC for it to end -- there are about half a dozen ways that could happen.

At this point, I'm just trying to do my best with the time that I have to run events and quests that make sense for the larger plot (which really has been going on since July 3, actually). Sometimes players have trouble connecting all the dots, but that's the nature of these things.

I imagine things will be resolved one way or another soon, but when it happens it will be because of player actions.

CON already does play a role in the proceedings.

It adjusts your damn fortitude save.

but fortitude saves dont help when you have already caught the plague

and i think if you take a potion and your cons still remains low, its kinda of realistic because im assuming you would still need to recover even after you've taken the potion. ofcourse you could always have a restoration to hand instead