Yo,

The Stoutheart Clan dwarf faction is in the process of re-organization and recruitment. If you have played a member of the Clan and want to keep doing so, get on the Clan forum and let us know. Otherwise, your player name will be deleted from the faction and your character considered dead or missing.

If you are interested in creating a dwarf character and joining the faction, please consider doing so. We are looking for some veteran RPers to enrich the core of good RPers we currently have. Thankfully most are better than me :D , but we could use a few more. Those with experience generating and maintaining broad plotlines are particularly welcomed.

It is primarily a non-evil requirement, but evils aren't prohibited if they can RP it and get into the Clan. Even an evil rogue/assassin or monk concept could fly if it is Rped appropiately. Primarily looking for non-evils, but we've had evils before so it's not prohibited. There is no application necessary as its a player faction, but being a dwarf no longer gets your character a slap on the back and admission into the Clan.

Any class is welcome. Of the core players, we currently have a paladin, a bard, a fighter/rogue, one or two pure rogues, a few pure clerics, a handful of fighters and one or two mages.

Also, I am personally interested in any feedback and/or suggestions from the player base. Please keep any criticism fairly contructive, as we are a dour, suspicious and taciturn race by nature.... :P Seriously, what do you feel is good and what do you think is bad about the faction and/or characters in general? Other than saying, "Bruenor sucks because..." or "PlayerX sucks because....." and calling peeps out, anyone have some feedback/suggestions for us?

Thanks a bunch!

PS - Any specific suggestions for my Rollo character, feel free to PM me.

PPS - We're trying to improve the dwarf faction and hopefully enrich the server and EfU setting as a result.

I also play a dwarf (though non-stoutheart) and would love to see a bit more camaraderie and player-created plot-lines.

I don't know much about the faction, but a bunch o' shield dwarves scratching out an existence in the underdark has to be a load of fun!

See ya IC...

Because you have made the post, I have to ask. What does the dwarf faction do?

Dwarf player here. Only met 4 members of the stouthearts, so far. Porki and Bjorn, Cronus and Frors. Been at it for about a week steadily with my slice of dwavendom. From what I have encountered, the dwarven players I have adventured with are top notch! As to any critiscisms, I have not done more then hunt with a few of you, so I am reserving judgement. I have seen many non-Stouthearts dwarves tho, and all of them are solid rp'rs and capable team mates. Would love to get involved in a broader story line, when one occurs, or even help get one cranked up.

-Current Incarnation Fynear AxeRage

(PM me if you want his info, I try to keep ooc stuff in tells and pm's)

Because you asked, I have to answer. :D

We definately have our strengths and weaknesses. We do a great job of welcoming new and vet players with dwarf characters in my opinion. Most of the melee oriented builds tend to align and quest with the good/nuetral fighters and pallys such as Torm, Helm, Tyr, Ilmater and Lathander. Characters are usually pretty happy to have a dwarf with shield and weapon in the front of their party.

Our non-melee based characters are usually pretty active in plots and RP. IMHO, some of them are exceptional RPers within the stereotypical dwarf persona and racial framework. Some players don't care for the accent, but if you've ever quested with Hennrick and his Prussian-dwarf accent - it's a treat and adds quite a bit of spice.

I think we've had a problem with identity somewhat as a faction, because of the disparity over traditional shield dwarf culture and trying to work within the EfU setting. Shields would NEVER live near Duergar and be beholden to them for the security of the Clan.

And the fact that dwarves are traditionally very clannish and stand-offish from other races clashes somewhat with the DMs desires to maximize player interaction and plot involvement.

Now sprinkle in the different time zones that people play on and the difficulty in consistently communicating what was RPed earlier by those other players, and a bit of chaos and choppy play ensues.

As for having shield dwarves in this setting, I think it's pretty logical that there would be quite a few. They would be EXCELLENT slaves. Think about the American South and slavery. Strong slaves that were good workers were highly desired. If the Drow wanted mining work done, what better race to enslave and torture than the dwarves? Highest constitution of the player races, with an pre-existing aptitude for stonework and weapon/armor crafting. Their clannishness would be an asset in survivability, as humans and other races would have a hard time being enslaved underground and working themselves to the bone - both mentally and physically.

Their innate resistance to spells would make them good cannon fodder in drow house wars. They'd be good thralls for illithids to build/maintain their cities, as well as foot soldiers to defend it.

Seriously, would drow and illithid enslave halflings for grunt work? Or even elves? Who needs a three foot tall miner swinging an 18 inch pickaxe?

Was the second post in case we missed the first, or to just reiterate your point? :wink: Just kiddin'.

Your faction then, by what you're saying

1) greets new players

2) quests

3) does things that make no sense in the game world, like live near duergar.

I'd have to say that a Faction should be more than that. It really should try to reflect the setting, so rather than be close to the duergar the faction can make a goal of trying to drive them out, compete with them, or oppose them in some way.

Factions certainly should form groups to quest together and greet new players, but its a lot more than that.

Factions require goals, agendas, plans. What do the Stouts want for tomorrow, for next month, for next year?

Way back, I recall when they were trying to make a rothe ranch and thought it was a great idea that caused player conflict.

Think of ways to engage in more things like that, and I'd be really impressed with the faction.

Easy or complicated, but things like:

1 rothe ranches or opening mushroom farms 2 oppose the duergar and evil underdark races more 3 Stouts could openly bring war and raids against races they oppose, even bringing them some conflict with Sanctuary for drawing attention so close to the city 4 look for a new lair instead of a duergar mine, speak to a DM and maybe they'd work out a story about an ancient dwarf/duergar city the stouts could seek to reclaim, decurse, what have you

Think of things the faction can seek to do, and its best to think of things that are easy, hard, and freaking impossible as goals.

Easy things like, stir up trouble for goblins by raiding them frequently. To medium acquire a stellar collection of magical axes To freaking impossible, reclaim the lost duergar city of Rocklushtha which was cursed by a dark shadow dragon centuries ago.

The idea of the Stouts is really interesting, but it lacks much substance beyond a kind of "all-dwarf-clique" which does a great job including new players and questing, but honestly you can do that much without a faction.

Also make sure your members realize the importance of using the forums to share plot and story information. I lament joining a player faction and seeing three or four threads on their forum, when I know that six players are involved in eight different plots--but none are sharing the love which allows your faction to partake in more DM plots and stories, increasing entertainment for all.

Oroborous Your faction then, by what you're saying

1) greets new players

2) quests

3) does things that make no sense in the game world, like live near duergar.

I'd have to say that a Faction should be more than that. It really should try to reflect the setting, so rather than be close to the duergar the faction can make a goal of trying to drive them out, compete with them, or oppose them in some way.

Factions certainly should form groups to quest together and greet new players, but its a lot more than that.

Factions require goals, agendas, plans. What do the Stouts want for tomorrow, for next month, for next year?

Way back, I recall when they were trying to make a rothe ranch and thought it was a great idea that caused player conflict.

Think of ways to engage in more things like that, and I'd be really impressed with the faction.

Easy or complicated, but things like:

1 rothe ranches or opening mushroom farms 2 oppose the duergar and evil underdark races more 3 Stouts could openly bring war and raids against races they oppose, even bringing them some conflict with Sanctuary for drawing attention so close to the city 4 look for a new lair instead of a duergar mine, speak to a DM and maybe they'd work out a story about an ancient dwarf/duergar city the stouts could seek to reclaim, decurse, what have you

Think of things the faction can seek to do, and its best to think of things that are easy, hard, and freaking impossible as goals.

Easy things like, stir up trouble for goblins by raiding them frequently. To medium acquire a stellar collection of magical axes To freaking impossible, reclaim the lost duergar city of Rocklushtha which was cursed by a dark shadow dragon centuries ago.

The idea of the Stouts is really interesting, but it lacks much substance beyond a kind of "all-dwarf-clique" which does a great job including new players and questing, but honestly you can do that much without a faction.

Also make sure your members realize the importance of using the forums to share plot and story information. I lament joining a player faction and seeing three or four threads on their forum, when I know that six players are involved in eight different plots--but none are sharing the love which allows your faction to partake in more DM plots and stories, increasing entertainment for all.

Just a final note to defend something that apparently is not percieved very well.

1. The Dwarves live in the mines because they won that little spot, in a DM quest that was a real good time. There was the impression then, that it could be built upon. After it became apparent, that it was not going to be possible to do so, for many reasons not worth mentioning, we sort of stayed there, because even when all you have is one shredded dirty blanket, you tend to keep it because it's all you have.

2. Really tired of CERTAIN people bad mouthing the dwarves. It's a role playing enviroment and dwarvers ARE clannish. We didn't just provide a quest group, the stouthearts were family. It was a Society, it was something that dwarf players involved could look forward too. It's not my fault, that no one wanted to sit in on the many days when we would just role play, or trade stories, or listen to the warchanter perform for us.

3. Hard to come up with a Menu of things you want to DO, when the people that sell you the Food won't say what's for Sale. 90 percent of what we wanted to do was rejected, for usually, being to far away, splitting the player base, no crafting, not enough coin, and then constantly demanding things from the dm's like new keys if the hall was broke into, etc. Trying to find something to do was akin to hitting a dartboard in the dark, with a badger.

4. Bit more then 6 threads in the forum too. Going to be a bit less then since I'm finally done.

5. DM issues. They can't be everywhere and a lot of what we had lined up would have required attention that would not have been there. A Lot of that goes back to the Menu thing. Everyone keeps saying Do SOMETHING, but never at one time was anything approachable ever presented, except once. The Time we gained the Hall in the first place.

Everything else has just been, arrest a dwarf, brutalize a dwarf, have wild goblin orgies in their hall, belittle them for living next to the duergar, squawk at them for doing nothing when they are being picked off one by one by various other groups and factions, spit on them, laugh at them behind their backs, one thing after another.

But that little group of family still stuck together. Perservered, sometimes thrived.

You want to know what the Stouthearts provide?

Fun.

~Rex fini.

Eh. I've seen a fair deal of the Stout-hearts when I played my own Dwarf.

I'm going to have to agree with Oroborous. I also know that it was possible to have their faction HQ area/Shack to be built upon as the opportunity was offered to me if I opted to pursue something with a character.

I look at that faction and I seem limitless potential for awesome things, it just doesn't look like anyone cares to pursue anything.

I'm hoping to help change that. All we need is a few blokes (or ladies - I'm not picky) with positive attitudes and some desire to see some things done.

I think one of the problems the stouthearts have is that they're the most OPEN of all the groups.

Dwarves dont generally HAVE secret agenda's it's all there in plain sight this has a lot to do with personality, with the exclusion of abbathor worshippers which COULD make an interesting inclusion to political realms. They're all about GREED for the dwarves, and what they can gain out of situations.

I agree that being where they are sort of diffuses them in a lot of ways given dwarven/duergar enmity.

If there was a different mine on the other side of sanctuary inhabited by shielders (and some golds) and bad vibes between the duergar and dwarves it would make for an more interesting mechanism. If it was inhabited by a few npc shield dwarves and possibly a standard quest hook it might also extend things a bit.

Everything else has just been, arrest a dwarf, brutalize a dwarf, have wild goblin orgies in their hall, belittle them for living next to the duergar, squawk at them for doing nothing when they are being picked off one by one by various other groups and factions, spit on them, laugh at them behind their backs, one thing after another.

But that little group of family still stuck together. Perservered, sometimes thrived.

There was a philosophy prof that offered a sage piece of advice once in a conversation that perhaps I will put down here. If someone, whoever they may be, has a criticism about an action--that criticism is likely rooted in truth.

Not to say that it is 100% absolute, but often if criticism is placed it has a root in something that could be changed for the better. Personally I have often wondered why the Shield/Gold dwarves would live in the mines given to them/near the Deurgar, who are their almost racially sworn enemies. Would any self respecting dwarf even buy anything from a deurgar? I suppose that is up to the individual player but for me I couldn't see it happening for any neutral or good aligned dwarf with any sense of clan or race.

If people are offering suggestions for changes to a faction that has ben percieved as something akin to a questing group, then perhaps that was the perception the group was putting forward.

I would offer that clear goals in line with some of the things that have been offered could help quite a bit. And that actions to police your own within the clan may help as well.

My two cents from an old dixie cup.

Great stuff.

This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. I play Rollo and I'm still growing/learning about RP, PvP etiquette and game mechanics. Just started in April, and this has been a blast.

I'm not trying to speak for all the dwarf players, but I've been pretty active in forum work and in a leadership role, so that's why I've initiated this dialogue. I hope no players in the faction are miffed that I'm wresting control or being bossy OOCly, but it clearly needs done.

A vet player made a good point via PM, one that I'd mentioned to Howland. Many newbs start here playing a min/maxed dwarf fighter. They are simple, fun, and stereotypical - which helps folk new to OLRPG learn and grow. By inviting every new dwarf to join our Clan, we are offering a chance for newbs to learn how to RP. The non-melee builds offer an excellent example that there is more than just charging and killing to RP. Also, that breaking character frequently and powergaming/metagaming aren't really accepted here.

We do a LOT of OOC tells to teach newbs the game mechanics, server etiquette, and basically how to play here on EfU. In my personal opinion - since Howland has clearly stated that welcoming and helping new players is very important here - I think we may do more of it than any other faction, yet get very little credit/DM reward for it.

And I'm certainly not blaming them. They can't be everywhere, and from their POV, when we welcome a clueless newb player of a dwarf, and help to immerse them into the server, it looks like "There's another boring, min/maxed powergamer they just added." I'm not going to get on the DM channel and say "LOOK! I'm helping the 15th new dwarf player of the month - give me some love!" That's poor form in my opinion, and it's not why we/I bring every Ulf, Gimli and Dorin into the faction.

Yet our willingness to bring newbs in tarnishes the overall quality of the players in our faction and perpetuates the image of a bunch of min/maxed powergamers. But if we are picky OOCly, and only accept players that are clearly excellent RPers, it is a huge violation of racial tendencies and is breaking character. Dwarves wouldn't say, "You're new here, you recently escaped/poor/desperate kinsman...... good luck. Maybe later you can join us, if you speak well and work well with others."

Hmmm, an idea is surfacing....would letting all new dwarves into the Clan, yet making it very difficult to become a full fledged member, like an Elder, be the answer? Oi, me brain be a buzzing.

Hey, keep the comments coming! Appreciated by all!

This thread is great, it's tempting me to make a priest of Abbathor and intergrate myself into the clan. Gwydion, you're awesome.

Is that sarcasm? LOL, I'll assume it's not, so thanks.

There was an evil, dwarf female rogue in our Clan a while ago that drove my character nuts. He was going to convert or boot her from the Clan sooner or later, but she hasn't been around lately. Lots of conflict, but it was even harder to get shit done.

Favorite moment with her? Madcaddies' asshole priest of Garagos was talking to a beholder, and this dwarf rogue tries to sneak past this multiple eyed beast and gets intstantly fried by it. That was funnier than hell to me.

Point is, if/when our faction develops into the potential Inquisitor sees, that stuff will be fun.

If anyone is tired of the grind, and want to develop a dwarf character to get in on the ground floor of this dwarven facelift, you certainly are welcome.

Gwydion, if you're looking for stuff to work with, I have an old dwarven sourcebook on pdf, if you haven't already read it.

You got that from me!

Speaking up for the Newb Dwarf Min/Max'rs of the world, I am guilty of this, for all the stated reasons. Did not have a clue about the server, but made a char to basically explore it with, who found himself in some steeped rp right out of the barrrel, so he has stuck around. Gave him a light description in the Char creation mode, and use it as a ongoing base for his backstory history now that I found how crucial and FUN rp can be.

And all the dwarven hates Druegar stuff, right on! And rp'd as so is still not that hard, even under the current conditions. The dwarf in question wears a Druegar helm, and will happily tell you in gory detail what he did to it's former owner. Buys from Norma or Speckard, won't give the druegar a single coin, unless they are the only game in town, and then will make sure insult accompanies payment. Quite happy to take there money, and laugh at their misfortunes if any occur. (dead daughter anyone?) True sheild can be played quite well, even in the forced druegar business relationship. As for the beating, bias, abuse of the dwarf, expects nothing less from "slims", and it reinforces the us against them mentality of the enviormennt. All other races are suspect, until said character has proven himself,herself in the heat battle.

"sets a stool on top of the soapbox" and, to dwarven clan structures, I remember, some great examples of dwarven military order in the RA Salvatore books, "sheilds his ears from the groan", Generals to scouts, preists to kings, and everything in between, I even remember a dwarven druid being in there. Divisions of skill, labour and rank, so a ranking/clan structure of seniority,(proven rp ability, knowing game mechanics and in game etiqute, etc, ) seems completely in line. Thats this converted min/maxer's two cents worth..

(Starts scribbling up Rollo for King posters) Neva loiked tha idea of a kin fallowoin them slim styles o' governin, ahh King, 'e gits shite done!

I'd love to see some stuff akin to an influencial dwarf coming into the clan and pitting the stouts against the Duergar.

Or a Dwarf who's extreme enough to just outright attack the Duergar instead of constantly asking Sanctuary to remove them.

The whole Duergar thing could be a huge focus and cause a good deal of conflict regardless of how it turns out.

As far as roleplay, my biggest peeve is how people focus on the typical aspects of Dwarves, such as their drinking, dialect, love for war, etc. Dwarves can be pretty deep and I feel the stereotypes don't do them any justice. I particularily enjoyed Terry's Gold Dwarf because he captured the persona of the southron Dwarf so well. Arrogant, pompous, educated, but still maintained all the things that make Dwarves what they are (Depending on which race); Stubborness, acceptance of war, hatred for lesser/wicked races. He balanced the stereotypes with something deeper, and the depth of the character outshined and made it an excellent character to hang around with my old Gold Dwarf.

I'd suggest anyone looking to play a serious Dwarf read the Dwarve's Deep sourcebook, it's an awesome source if you take the time to read it all.

Hmmm, an idea is surfacing....would letting all new dwarves into the Clan, yet making it very difficult to become a full fledged member, like an Elder, be the answer? Oi, me brain be a buzzing.

That's a very good idea.

Its something I do with my player faction. I let anyone who wants to join it, join it; but you start as an Aspirant with membership but no authority or influence in the faction. After awhile you can become a full Knight who suddenly has an opinion that matters, can assing aspirants with duties, and persue an agenda. Knights eventually, if they rock hard can be promoted one last time to Magistrates who are now in charge of directing Knights even.

A system like this is very lawful and orderly, plus has the benefit of continually letting people delegate/include others in plots they have going on which after involving newbies and players OOC is a prime reason for creating a player faction.

As for Rex's unfortunate outburst; all I can say is even if Dungal managed to win a huge fortress made of diamonds in the wererat warrens, he'd have refused it or turned it into a base to exterminate the wererats from. Just because you get attention on a DM quest doesn't mean you have to accept it in a way that makes little sense to a wide majority of the player base--and which you can't even necessarily fathom sense from yourself.

More importantly though, DMs will frequently say "Plan X won't work". However, if you say "Hi DMs, I realize Plan X won't work but what might work? What could we do, how about Plan Y, Z, Q, R or do you have your own idea?" will always work. Instead of making plans based on non-existant systems like crafting or splitting the player base around a dwarven hall or mine; try to focus on ideas that involve current ongoing plots, situations, intrigue, story lines and will not just involve your tiny faction but draw in rival factions and groups.

I'm just trying to help out, I really like the Stouthearts and think they have great potential. When they got Stonebeard Hall I was pleased for that and looked forward to seeing how the stouts would use it as a tool to fight the duergar or influence them or influence Sanctuary; and I still look forward to seeing that happen in some way.

This is in response to the whole Duergar issue, what the clan has been doing & their lack of long term planning. Also, this is in no way a complaint, just the way I see things.

Basically, as a starting character, you are fairly limited to what you can buy and who from. Yes dwarves tend to feel antipathy towards duergar but on the whole, dwarves are often pragmatic folks and deal with the situation they've been given. They will trade with them unless they are really extreme in their attitudes towards duergar. Also, as players when starting up, you have limited options as to where you buy your weapons and armour. So you have to deal with the duergar as much as your character may loath them. It's that or run about with leathers etc or broken kobold crap till you find the other merchants further out from sanctuary. Neither option is really appealing but I'd say a dwarf would choose duergar plate over armour made by some other race because the plate was made by a -dwarf-, grey yes but he's still a dwarf and dwarf made armour is better than anything else in their eyes.

Next, plots and goals. It's pretty hard to plot & scheme when your basically in survival mode. The clan started up well, got the hall after a great dm quest, then suddenly found themselves targets from all sorts of outsiders, factions & individuals. Most of the original clan members are dead now, only Rollo & Porki survive. It's been a real struggle to keep things going and I take my hat off to Gwydion & Helkesset for sticking with it all. So essentially IMO, it's been trying to keep the faction going that has precluded long term goals/planning etc.

This survival mode and lack of activities to do IG [like crafting & being merchants etc] means that the best thing the dwarves can do is be a mercanary group, sticking together through racial solidaity and thumping monsters for gold. I've many groups/factions who did pretty much the same so why the criticism when the dwarves do it? Also, the Tigereyes [lead and run by duergar] where a mercanary clan so why the problem with the stouthearts doing the same thing?

Then there is the issue of living next to duergar. Come on guys, you have to realise that more often than not, you can't always choose who your neighbours will be. Ok, the greys are arseholes in the eyes of most dwarves but it's where the clan's little HQ is, in a duergar mine. It was earned and dwarves aren't likely to knock back a free hall so quickly, pragmatic people remember? You don't look a gift horse in the mouth, unless your a paladin and the gift comes from someone evil. :P

And to be frank, plotting to take on and fight the duergar clan & their mine was mooted by me a long while back but nothing was done about it. I'd say it's because of our fluid member base and again, survival mode mentality, that made long term planning unfeasible. Also, I'd say it would have been suicide to battle the mine owners as the stouts when they were constantly being sniped at from a whole bunch of others. And, if by the merest chance we'd have won, guess what? We have to become the merchants making and selling equipment, filling the vacuum that the defeated duergar left behind. And I dont see this becoming a reality.

I've stuck up many ideas on the player forum, sadly though most aren't feasible for one reason or another. I concede things may change and yes, we can petition the DM team with ideas & suggestions. I'd like the clan to have an idea of where their long term goals are. But for now, just having a working faction is the priority.

Inquisitor I'd love to see some stuff akin to an influencial dwarf coming into the clan and pitting the stouts against the Duergar.

Or a Dwarf who's extreme enough to just outright attack the Duergar instead of constantly asking Sanctuary to remove them.

Just picking up on this, dwarves may loath the duergar but they're not suicidal idiots that will attack vastly superior forces [unless they are battleragers] and hope to win.

Just see how far you'd get as a single player or small group of dwarves attacking the NPC's of the greys because you're expressing your hatred for the greys.

An express trip to the fugue is what it'll be. Sure, you've rp'ed your character however you are now dead, probably dry looted and no where near closer to your goal of driving out the duergar.

Call me cynical but from what I've seen, you don't get exp. for getting your throat cut.

I think you're looking at it from the position of "limited options" rather than the position of "anything possible".

There are animatrons in the city, hundreds of warriors. There are a few dozens of duergar in the mines. There are dragons that could wipe out mine of duergar. Plagues, demons, drow.

You may have limited options on where to buy gear, why? Because no one's looking for new sources. There's a great goal for the faction.

Even a faction of mercenaries, like the Tigereyes or the Golden Mercenaries or the Golden Doubloons had tons of goals while the Stouts really have no cohesion apparent to non-members like myself beyond being composed entirely of dwarfs--and at one point I believe they weren't even that due to the incoporation of a half orc member.

Rather than try to 'defend the faction' as several posts are doing, why not just look at some honest suggestions for improvement and go "well yes, good point" or "no, that won't work but thanks". No one is attacking the stouts and certainly not the players, but someone asked for feed back and ideas; and I'm taking some time to provide my two cents for people to take or to leave.

Actually, Talawyn, Lemli was moving towards that goal before he was killed. Believe me, he wasn't suicidal, but he was trying to move the dwarves to become a more aggressive faction. The reason why he helped Akevitt become the Thane was because he thought it would lead to an attack on the duergar.

I think that the dwarven faction tends not to focus on long-term plots or anything that doesn't result in their character's immediate gain. But, I do think that the faction has the potential to move towards interesting plots and conflict, and for the admittedly brief period of time I spent in the faction, I was swamped with requests from other characters about specific plots or interesting things we could have undertaken.

What I would recommend, Gwydion, is to continue what I've already recommended to you in the past, and what it looks like you're doing now. Reorganize the faction, and don't be afraid of making drastic changes. Currently it's extremely disorganized, and some of the dwarves seem to be unaware of who their enemies should be. Establish an organizational system, heirarchy, and, most importantly, stick to it.

Those are just my opinions though. :) They're really paraphrasing, but I definitly agree with the people that think there should be more conflict with the duergar, and I think that new dwarves in the faction shouldn't be critisized for sharing their opinions, and trying to change the way the faction has always been. Embrace the conflict!

Because i am the shining embodyment of lazyness and didnt read this whole thing i am going to ask how exactly does one join this clan?

You meet up with an existing Stoutheart Clansman and talk to him about it IG.

I hear the suggestions and appreciate the input guys, honestly I do. I believe though that many people only have a limited understanding as to the problems the dwarves have had here. We've had another setback with Rex leaving as he did and for me, it just compounds the problems we have. It's going to be a glum clan for a wee while since their Thane just got raised only to die again. Morale is very low.

In essense, I see the glass as half empty, not half full here. It comes from the experience I have had playing Porki over the last 8 months on & off, and watching how things work here on the server. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it gets you down after a while to see something that had great potential, flounder for the the reasons I'll outline here and in my previous post. Also, I have to say , mia culpa here. I'm guilty of not actually asking the DM team for anything for the faction. The reason being is that for a while back, I was not sure if I'd be actually playing here due to RL committments, just didn't have the time to dedicate to gaming as I once did. I'm lucky now, in that I do have some time again but life may twist again and I'll have to curtail my activities here again. I loath to committ to things and not follow through, just doesn't feel right for me. This is why I stayed a casual player and didnt really put much effort in.

Again, please note this is no complaint nor criticism of those who have come forward with suggestions, just a simple statement as I see it.

There are no "limitless possiblities" as far as I can see, maybe some viable options but I do welcome more ideas.

With luck, and the fact there are some wonderfully talented and creative people here who actually care, something may actually be possible for the clan.

In response to Oro's suggestion of using the Animatrons, nice idea but so far I haven't seen any player actually make an engineering dwarf, and the reason I think why is that it's pretty much pointless to put skill points into crafting here in efu. I'd think for the sake of some sort of believability, you'd have to have some level of craft armour and/or weapon to be able to fix things/get the machines to work the way you want them too. But I may be wrong? [shrugs] That's how I'd see it working anyhow. I do though hope that someone can show me a way to achieve this.

Getting allies from other underdark races is a better idea but certainly not the drow or illithids....they are just too dangerous to be trustworthy allies and would more likely just the stouts as cannon fodder/catspaws. They'd certainly not act through alturism by any stretch of the imagination. They'd want something that the dwarves would be either unable/unwilling to give up. Also, using the argument "enemy of my enemy" here is fraught with problems for the dwarves because again, most of the potenial allies are actually racial enemies. The dwarves would have to get help from the deep gnomes or a faction in sanctuary. Tyhe clan has individuals as friends but no allies...something we have to work on here. Interesed parties/factions who wanted dwarves as allies, let us know.

In reagrds to racial war with the greys, I didn't really have much chance to rp with Lemli as I was busy with RL, work etc. I like the idea in principle and will put it to the clan IG & via the forum and run it up the flagpole and see who salutes.

However, if someone can come up with a way to getany of these ideas working, please let us know.

Again though, goals are achievable if you actually have time to sit and think about them rather than wonder whih group/person is trying to kill your clan mates or yourself. Look at any "barbarian" or tribal culture and you can see that their basic plan is survival first. No time really for long term planning. I think that's what our problem is here. We, as a clan, have been trying to keep our heads above water that we lost sight of any real long term goals that may have been possible. Instead, we focused on recruiting and trying to actually maintain a viable faction both IG & OOC. Another real problem is many dwarf players have conflicting timezones for playing, so again, it makes it difficult to muster enough force to do anythng concrete. If we had, like we did when we got the hall, say 9 dwarf players all on at the same time, it'd be a force to be reckoned with for sure, but it rarely happens.

My final point is this: I know I sound critical of some of the ideas mooted here. I have to say that I am trying to see it from a dwarf's perspective as well, they just can't/won't try certain things. I want the best for the faction and appreciate all the help we can get. I do ask that people continue to contribute though.

I think part of this feeling of outsiders being on the "offense" and members of the stouthearts feeling the need to become defensive is part of the nature of the clan. Its based around a race that by its very nature tends to prefer their own company, and so to outsiders it can be a little alienating.

One of my suggestions for players of Dwarves who have Stoutheart membership in mind is perhaps minor, perhaps not. But I feel with a group like this, there is an almost overwhelming pressure to newbies that if you're not playing the dwarves a certain way then you're not playing it right. So of all things please treat your characters as individuals, not as another member of the Stouthearts (and there are some exceptional dwarves who have a LOT of character - so don't get me wrong, I've seen fantastic examples).

In general though, I feel that dwarves suffer from a touch of what I call "Accent over character" or "form over content". I do alot of theatre and its unbelievable the number of times people come in and perform an accent in an audition, but lack any true character in their performance. While the accent is certainly a nice touch of colour, it is NOTHING without having a solid character as well. Accents should be something that colour a character, not something that forms the basis of one.

I sometimes feel that the way the clan operates is almost as a "this is how to play a dwarf" for newbies. They see a large group of clearly powerful and experienced roleplayers and assume that their dwarf should be like them.

I don't know how this can be repaired, but maybe my suggestion is for Clan members to be aware of how they are appearing to outsiders. For the the above reason regarding newbies, but also because alot of the IC disrespect for dwarves is because of how alot of characters perceive their clan in the game - exclusive, inward-looking and often arrogant.

Talwyn wrote: Again though, goals are achievable if you actually have time to sit and think about them rather than wonder whih group/person is trying to kill your clan mates or yourself. Look at any "barbarian" or tribal culture and you can see that their basic plan is survival first. No time really for long term planning.

I would say, If you build it, they will come. My obligatroy movie quote out of the way I think that long term goals and a solid well structured faction are key to attracting the members that will stick around. If as a player I see a group with no forward motion (ie goals and working to them) and/or no structure, I will likely not cry too much if I loose my character that is associated with the group.

Secondly, as Chezcaliente aptly pointed out, that the group does have an in game feeling of being exclusionary and arrogent. If you are striving for that, then more power to the group, but know that certain disdain from the general populace not a dwarf will come with it. I think helping to drive that are sendings for quests that go something to the effect of:

(in dwarven in game accent) "Rooight. Askin all meh stouts ta coom to the Town Hall ta fight some bloody zombies at the stairs." (happened twice yesterday while I was on)

And when other races do come to inquire, they are either ignored completley, or are insulted and told to leave. I think it's great if this is all in character or in "clan" for the group. But be prepared for in game consequences of this happening. People will often assume as well, that any dwarf doing this stuff is part and parcel of teh clan becasue clan members usually show up to do the quest.

Edit: Oh yeah, as for the barbarian cultures I would disagree completely. The vikings were the stereotypical barb culture of the north and had enough long term plans to sit in the throne of England for quite some time, as well as drive expansion for trade both to the east and west. They were in effect the driving economic power early on for their long term plans. Native American tribes as well knew the cycles of the herds well enough to plan years ahead in their migratory patterns to be in the best spots for the tribe to become rather well off and grow.

Yes, big miss on 'tribal cultures' there. The Iroquois managed to play two major European nations into a war as part of a long term plan to crush their own enemies and ultimately drive the European powers out of their lands--which happened to be all the land they saw around themselves. They failed, but they had long term plans.

Part of the trouble is I made a lot of suggestions that will work, others can be made--but you interpret them in ways that won't work. I'll guess its the same when you talk to a DM about ideas, you bring an idea and present it in a way that won't work; then give the idea up entirely.

So what if you can't craft. It doesn't mean the dwarves shouldn't try to locate a mine, locate an enslaved master dwarf craftsman, locate and steal a magical orog forge. Free the enslave master dwarf and his clan, bring them to the mine, help him set up the forge, drive the duergar out of the region by making alliances with Sanctuary and its various factions.

I'm happy to spell out suggestions, take the idea to a DM; play around with it. If a DM says "no its unworkable" say "do you mind if I keep trying IG even if I'll fail?" and a DM will probably respond "of course not". Your faction is still doing stuff, heading out looking to raid slavers; exploring caverns and the underdark seeking mines, making deals with factions in Sanctuary to eliminate rivals.

The other issue I'm noting is a tendency to say "the Stouts are a clannish suspicious group so *I* am being suspicious and hostile to new ideas" I paraphrase of course, but saw something similar to that in two seperate posts by two people. Focus on new and novel ideas from the point of view of a dwarf, trust me they do have new and novel ideas but ideas based in an ancient and honored culture--pick up Kemp's book on ancient Egypt (I forget the title) but it was all about how ancient traditional cultures demonstrate incredible innovaton.

I'm confident that the Stouts can do a lot of interesting things, even with a lot of new players if they just had two or three solid and eager players dedicated to the faction and seeing it develop. Don't be afraid to pull aside a DM in IRC and say "Hey, I want to do this" or "What ideas do you think we could have to do X" or send in an e-mail with a developed plan and why you want to do it and most important I'd think--why it'll affect and bring entertainment to people OUTSIDE the faction.

Thanks again for the input guys :D

Lay good foundations before you build your house is the key here. When we have a roster and an idea of what we're doing, who will be a part of it etc, then we'll be able to interact with other factions in a more meaningful way.

We're in a rebuilding phase right now, trying to sort out who will be part of the clan etc. There are at last half a dozen people that play dwarves that I've interacted with over the last few days that are keen. However, it's a matter of co-ordinating players to be on at the same time. If not, then we'll have to use the forums.

Also I don't use IRC.

Oh, one final point: if the stouts come across as arrogant and exclusive, that was not the intention nor has it ever been but it's been said they we have been acting in that way. I believe they are wrong.

Surely it makes sense for a dwarf to want to work with his own kind first if he has the choice? I made such a call yesterday asking for dwaves -preferably- but others were welcome and ended up taking a half orc along for the staircase bash since he was the only one who showed up. If people choose to view the way dwarves act as arrogant, well they are in a way. It's their nature to be a bit stand-off-ish, slightly leery of outsiders whom they don't know anything about.

Collar us on IRC (or on the forums or with e-mails)! That goes for EVERYONE. We don't get enough people harassing us for things they want their characters to do. Things don't happen if you wait for them to happen - you say "B-but it's a DM's job to do interesting things for us :(" - I say, bullcrap, don't rely on me for jack squat because i'm a lazy, lazy guy!

You need to think of something you want to do and pull my hair on IRC until I do it for you. When I log on to DM, I tend to do spur-of-the-moment things as opposed to life-changing faction-quests. If you give me a reason to do something else for you, i've got -no excuses-, so poke me in the gut until I get moving. Capisci?

Talwyn

There are no "limitless possiblities" as far as I can see, maybe some viable options but I do welcome more ideas.

There are limitless possibilities. There are infinite things you can come up with. Even when we say that some possibilities aren't viable, any finite number taken from infinity still leaves infinity. It's a matter of thinking outside the box. I was going to stay out of this, but I will put some things out there.

1) Crafting isn't a viable option. It would have far too much negative impact on the module as a whole between the module bloat, the lag, and the negative impact on the economy in what should be a controlled environment.

2) We have had PC merchants who have done quite well. They didn't do it via crafting, they did it via buying and selling. So this is an option that can be done.

3) Most "plot" discussions I've had about the dwarven clan have started something of the lines of "we deserve X, when will we get it." This turns me off immediately. Instead, I'd like to see things as, "here is our plan of what we would like to do, and how we will get there. What do you think?"

4) As far as the hall, there was an area added SPECIFICALLY to give an alternative to dealing with duergar. As far as I've heard, there have been no efforts to take advantage of it.

In response to Oro's suggestion of using the Animatrons, nice idea but so far I haven't seen any player actually make an engineering dwarf, and the reason I think why is that it's pretty much pointless to put skill points into crafting here in efu.

I'd think for the sake of some sort of believability, you'd have to have some level of craft armour and/or weapon to be able to fix things/get the machines to work the way you want them too. But I may be wrong? [shrugs] That's how I'd see it working anyhow. I do though hope that someone can show me a way to achieve this.

It's been stated many times. Craft traps = engineering. There are a number of things that have been added into the module to support that skill specifically.

Getting allies from other underdark races is a better idea but certainly not the drow or illithids....they are just too dangerous to be trustworthy allies and would more likely just the stouts as cannon fodder/catspaws. They'd certainly not act through alturism by any stretch of the imagination. They'd want something that the dwarves would be either unable/unwilling to give up. Also, using the argument "enemy of my enemy" here is fraught with problems for the dwarves because again, most of the potenial allies are actually racial enemies. The dwarves would have to get help from the deep gnomes or a faction in sanctuary. Tyhe clan has individuals as friends but no allies...something we have to work on here. Interesed parties/factions who wanted dwarves as allies, let us know.

See, this gets back to what I perceive as the problem. Instead of waiting for them to come to you, why not go and start negotiating with other factions. Maybe there are factions who don't care one way or the other about the dwarves. Actually, I'm sure that is the case. However, if you go to them, I'm sure something that you can offer them in trade for support. Don't have a "we deserve this, so come to us" attitude, go out and go after what you want. Passivity is really the issue here.

And as far as helping out the clan and keeping everyone course-minded--might I suggest that the Stout Forum have a "Clan Goals" sticky?

1) This will allow your numbers--new and old--to keep up with short and long term plans.

2) Prioritizing these goals might help to focus your actions.

3) Insisting that clan members report on progress concerning your goals should be manditory. Lack of communication has impeded the clan's effectiveness in the past.

4) It will allow the DM team to monitor and participate in the moving forward of Southeart designs.

This has the workings of a great plot, and I think I'm going to create dwarven wizard when I get a chance. No intelligent dwarf is going to invade a mine full of duergar, even with a full force of his fellows. There would be far too many variables for it to effective, and they'd run an enormous risk of the duergar destroying the mine in defeat (and leaving Sanctuary without a good source of iron).

I love the idea of trying to locate a mine somewhere and getting a forge going, even a non-magical one and working on basic weapons and armor. Establish a system of leadership, hire basic crafting NPCs (dwarven or otherwise, although let's keep the half-orcs to a minimum), and set up stalls in the market and a heavily guarded one in lower and start undercutting the duergar's prices. Begin hiring agents and retainers as we need them to pursue specific agendas and perhaps set up an office in Upper and we've got the foundation of a merchant house with a dwarven flair.

The wealth it would produce would buy influence on the council, perhaps even earning the dwarves a spot, given enough time. Undermine the duergar's interests in the city, either by beating them with influence, earning contracts with the Guard and the various factions in the city, mercantile muscle, strategic killings, etc. From here, they could work to discredit the duergar and shift the city's dependency on the duergars with the eventual hope of getting them expelled from the area.

All of this could involve other players in a number of ways. The system of retainers could be a great spark for things. If things get going, their agents would need to hire mercenaries to investigate rumors of new sources of iron and other metals. If crafting's allowed to the level that it is at CoA (I'll need to read up on this), the mine will be in need of anyone who's skilled at forging. The duergar are likely to respond and hire agents and retainers of their own to strategically exert their rather potent strength through strategic assassinations and manipulation of the key players in this to simply reminding the good people of Sanctuary that they've been providing for them for years. This would be a major mercantile upheaval in the city that would affect virtually everyone in the game in one way or another, from Councilors looking to expand their own power, the Spellguard, and the Watch scrambling to maintain order in case open warfare between the two clans breaks out to local merchants possibly switching over to the dwarves for supplies and backing to average adventurers of any alignment pursuing their own agendas in the windows of opportunity that the turmoil would create. This has the potential to be an enormous, server-wide plot, and I'd love to see it take off.

Along the way there would be dozens of small steps, and it's rather unlikely that they'd accomplish their end goal of taking over the city's forges, but it would be a good time for just about everyone involved.