The Warrior's Conundrum.

[zDark Shadowz]

Barbarian vs Fighter - What do you "really" want to play?

On the surface it seems difficult, on one hand you have a warrior that can tap into an innate power and can weather any assault, on the other you have a warrior that's more of a tactician, skilled in advanced maneouvers. Both have their equal merits, their strengths and weaknesses which don't quite live up to the ideals one might have in mind sometimes. Or, maybe you aren't building that barbarian or fighter quite right?

We'll churn out some basic statistics out of the way to begin with, based on simplistic ideals and assuming 'Human' (We want to give the most feats/skillpoints to work with) and we'll just go with level 8 as the casual player can get here with a bit of effort.
No, I'm not going to consider a dexterity-based fighter in comparison to a strength-based barbarian... because simply put it sacrifices damage to gain its extra benefits. Maybe if there was a perk for barbarians that gave weapon finesse and relevant attack bonuses we might be able to compare, but not today.

I want a strength-based warrior! (Fighter Edition)

Okay, that's awesome, your standard strength build for a fighter will start with:

16 str 13 dex 14 con 13 intelligence 10 wisdom 10 charisma if you're human. If you aren't interested in Dodge, or think you can find an item for it in game, go 12 dex 14 intelligence.

Simple and effective, sword and board fighter. You can take saving throw feats at first level, third, sixth, you won't really be left wanting. If you wanted to go for a two-handed weapon you're more than able to, but keeping a shield in reserve alongside your heavy armour seems like it's a step in the right direction.

Weapon Focus, Expertise, Weapon Specialization, Dodge, Improved Critical are all achievable here through fighter feats. If you didn't take dodge, knockdown is a nice alternative (don't need to dodge things if they're on the floor!) and it sets you up for improved KD at 9 if you want it. If you aren't that much of a fan of saving throw feats then you'll have way more feats than you know what to do with, but taking Mobility is a good option to have alongside Dodge. Need to chug potions? Gain a +4 AC against those attacks of opportunity while you're doing it!

Averaging 8+2 HP a level is pretty okay, but if you're in for the long haul, leave Toughness for 9 rather than at three or six, you'll more often than not need to take Great Fortitude and Iron Will and it'll be less depressing if you roll poorly in HP if you're still getting +9 HP then, toughness is a feat that gets better with levels so there's really no reason to take it early since it's retroactive.

AC Options: Your AC comprises of (8)+1dex+dodge. = 10 (effective) points. Large shield (+1) for another 3 AC. If you get a fullplated fighter running with his tumble +1 and find a +1 AC Fullplate, that's optimal AC but all the tumble skillpoint items might be better invested in saving throw items.

And that's that, your strength-based warrior is done extremely simply with very little thought required. Solid saving throws (for a fighter), good feat selection. Not bad huh? Spice with perks as necessary.

I want a strength-based warrior! (Barbarian Edition - Standard)

If you're reading a thread about Barbarian vs Fighter, then you're probably wondering why pick barbarian over fighter at this point? I'll let you use your imagination for an original barbarian, and give you my thoughts on--

I want a strength-based warrior! (Barbarian Edition - That fights like a fighter)

Barbarians play better than a fighter as a flanker than a tanker, especially when they multiply their rage strength bonus through their two-handed weapon, but I understand, more often than not you want him to be able to survive on his own two feet. Who doesn't want their warrior to be more than capable in one-on-one combat situations? Or survivable when outnumbered? First things first, however.

You'll need to work out whether you want to use chain, breastplate or fullplate before you begin building. (Fullplate? Heresy!). If you're going breastplate, then you don't care about AC, and thus you don't actually want your barbarian to be able to fight like a fighter.
So the next question is, how do you want your stats allocated?

16 str 12 dex 14 con 14 int 10 wis 10 charisma seems like a good start, but it's not perfect. If you want to go the chain option, then we'll drop out -2 wisdom for 14 dex.

You want high AC. No, you need high AC. Your rage is there to disregard AC when you don't need it, but all other times, you Do. Need. It.

In this respect, you also need Expertise as well, but I'll argue that point later. 14 Intelligence instead of 14 charisma, +2 Skillpoints and Expertise vs Luck of Heroes and enhanced rage...

In anycase, my opinions aside, your options are to spend a feat taking Heavy Armour Proficiency and play out like a fighter, or you can take a -1 to Will and go 8 wisdom 14 dex, wear chain and just chug dex potions until you get there. In this case playing the naive, charismatic barbarian is a fun stereotype, and it's more of an exchange -1 Will for +1 Reflex, this is probably the better way to attribute-up your Barbarian. After all, do you expect your barbarian to have the same 'common' sense as civilised folk anyway? Play up the negative for a positive. 16 str 14 dex 14 con 10 int 8 wis 14 charisma

AC Option (Chain): 4 Base AC chain +2dex +1 Tumble +1 Dodge (Cross-classed) = 8 AC. Dex potion is optional in this instance for +2, shield gets another +3. You'll just have to remember if you want to tank tough things, pull out the cat's grace and take Dodge. Either spending a feat on Heavy Armour, with the first attributes, or wear chain and spend a feat on Dodge. Large shield for another +3, and there you go, but you'll probably just want to use a two-handed weapon most of the time. The chain option ends up -1 to -3 AC less than a fullplate user, so remember to drink your grace. Getting both dodge and heavy armour on a barbarian can be a bit feat intensive if you want to save coin on cat's grace, but it's up to you, might need those saving throw feats.

If you're using chain there is that damage immunity bonus as well, so in a way chain is better - but you need that dexterity potion because otherwise its negligible if you're getting hit more often so it's too small of a factor for anything. It'll still be -1 AC compared to a fullplate user that did fit in tumble and dodge over his penalties, however, maybe you'll find +1 chain, or maybe that warrior has +1 fullplate or a magic vestment item... the former is more likely than the latter so there's not really all 'that' much difference between using either, you just spend more coin to do things than a fullplate user for the same AC.

After your intial choice and/or saving throw feats are sorted out at first level, take weapon focus and whatever else on third and sixth. Comparing to a Fighter, you'll have your great fortitude and Iron will when you enter rage +2-3 Fortitude, +2 Will, so there's no real need to worry about that. Rage when you need those bonuses.

Now for the other conundrum about barbarians that you have to think of as an equal exchange.

Intelligence vs Charisma - do I really need that rage?

If you want it to fight like a fighter, then the answer is - no, you don't need that rage. Enhanced rage is a flavourful alternative, but more often than not you will want Expertise that you can use whenever moreso than +1 AB/Damage and +1 HP/Level more while raging. The extra skillpoints you have can be put toward cross-classing Spellcraft and acquire one (or two, three depending on equipment) saving throws against spells so you don't necessarily need to take Luck of Heroes in its place.

Also it's toggling +5 AC. If you want to tank, you need Expertise, there's no going around it. It'll also save you coin on cat's grace / healing for the easier stuff you'll be taking out.

You also get an interesting effect combining basic rage and expertise (more heresy!) when you're -3 AB +3 AC +2 (or 3 with 2-handed) damage +2 will +2 fort +2 HP/Level, not to mention +2 disc +2 concentration. Pull things back, stick with 12/13 dex 13/14 int 10 charisma, rely on either fullplate or a max roll of cat's grace with your chain if you feel you need expertise. We're making a barbarian that fights 'like a fighter' after all.

Some people may be crying about now - Where is the Power Attack? The Cleave? The Knockdown? -- well, you're a barbarian! You scorn these rejected traditions of training! Yes, they are nice, but hey, maybe you can find an item in-game that'll just give it to you for free, and then the fighters that trained for the feat can cry in shame in a corner. This server is more about saving throws than fancy feats when it comes to survival, fighters just get to have both. If you want to sacrifice taking a saving throw feat first level to get something like Knockdown, it's up to you.

... and there we have it, our Barbarian is done. My preference however was a Spiritcaller barbarian in heavy armour, didn't really care about taking dodge with it and just went for 16 str 12 dex 14 con 14 int 8 wisdom 12 charisma so that his slightly enhanced rage was effectively an extended variant of the standard. (+3 went to +4). Strong Soul + Heavy Armour first level, Expertise 3rd, Weapon focus at 6. He'd also get another +2 Will at level 8 if he ever made it that far. Being clever with your barbarian is just as important as being a clever barbarian.

Do remember though, that a chain-wearing barbarian can afford to take dodge, a full-plated barbarian, not really. Better to be in chain drinking dex potions with tumble and dodge with 14 dex (and hoping for that dex roll to be high enough) if you want to make use of the damage immunity properly with appropriate AC, but that cat grace is too much effort for me for a +1 AC advantage, and I might find a dodge feat item anyway given enough time.

Let's do some other easier-to-read comparisons with Barbarian and Fighter now.

HP-Wise:

Barbarian without + 0-1HP = Fighter with Toughess

Not really much of a benefit there being a barbarian. If you don't roll max, then be resigned to knowing you will have 'as much HP as a fighter.' Fighter base roll is 5+1 (toughness)-up to 5 HP compared with Barbarian base 6 up to 6 HP. Can't really afford to take toughness on a barbarian, you have other, far more interesting things to choose with your limited selection. The fighter doesn't have to take toughness either, and there's still the possibility the barbarian will roll the same or lower than a fighter.

Damage-wise:

Persistent +2 damage vs Rage damage (temporary & variable).

Yup okay so with a two-handed weapon you'll be doing +1 or +2 damage more, situational on perks. (Ignore mad berserker perk in this respect, what's the point if you're blinded? You'd need to spend a feat on Blind Fight to ignore miss chance percentages and roll a second chance at concealment). That's fine, you don't need to hit +1 more when you're dealing with fodder.... but there are fighter perks to increase damage as well, and +2 is persistent through weapon specialization.

AB-wise:

Annoyingly there are also fighter perks for attack bonus, so this is better than the attack bonus from raging in a long venture. Still, +2 or +3 AB in a pinch is damned useful.

AC-Wise: If we get a +1 chain, and drink cat's grace, and roll +4-+5 on that dex bonus, then we balance out with a fighter that doesn't have a +1 fullplate, or doesn't have tumble. That's a bit of monetary effort on either side I guess. Fullplate costs 5600 to make a proper, end-game-type one from the crafter, cat's grace is 80-120gp a pop depending on your supplier.

Saving throws: About the same (while raging) depending on your choice. Might be like -1 fort/ -1 reflex or -1 fort/-1 will off, or both depending on your choices, but it's 'close enough' while you're raging like a behemoth.

In the end, however, this equates to Fighters being better at fighting in the long run. (wow, who knew?)

All those feats pretty much put Fighter in a class of its own, but you can come very close with Barbarian to be nearly there if you make 'the right' sacrifices.

We've covered all the plusses of fighter, and compared it to barbarian pretending to be a fighter --but we haven't compared all the plusses of barbarian yet.

SKILLPOINTS! Woo.
So a barbarian that's pretending to be a fighter has, as a human, 6-7 Skillpoints per level as compared to the fighters 4-5. Or if you decided you didn't need expertise, it's exactly the same amount as that 14 int fighter (Yawn, boring). Skillpoints can make a barbarian more barbaric, so maybe the expertise barbarian is the more barbarian-like option, oddly. You can do so much more with an intelligent barbarian, so much so that you can make.

An alchemy barbarian! (lol) Concentration / Discipline / Taunt / Tumble / Heal / Lore / Spellcraft. If you went the full-plate option, pull out Tumble and dump it into Listen. Or just don't go full-metal-alchemist and use those alchemy skillpoints for other things, like intimidate,listen, persuade etc.

Okay, sure, you probably don't get those nifty class level bonuses, but with equipment and proper care with reagents it's doable. You likely won't actually make a totem-crafting shamanistic kind of barbarian. The more important skills you may have noticed on this list, however --
Listen skill. Detection?! Yes, Barbarians get detection. Okay, there are fighter perks for Listen skill. Let's ignore that. They can't take every perk and they'd be cross-classing skillpoints that'd be better spent for them elsewhere, and a fighter without detection at all is just asking to be killed by the next cunning rogue that's had plenty of time scouting them before pulling out his wands.

Taunt! Who cares if you're down -1 to -3 AC overall from a fighter when you can drop-kick his AC by 6. ... and yes, Fighters can cross-class Taunt, and they get perks for Taunt as well... but at this point we should realise a fighter can't take EVERY perk and EVERY skillpoint, and our barbarian-pretending-to-be-a-fighter is achieving this part easier without the need of perks. You'll be luckier with Taunt than the fighter is with theirs, if they even remembered to take it. Concentration rises while under rage as well thanks to that constitution bonus to resist taunts.

With a high taunt, rage and expertise, you'll be a barbarian doing all sorts of funky things with AB/AC ratios against other people and enemies, so go nuts with it! Clobber that Mage Hunter that's been stalking your wizard with a vengenace for the past five minutes while you're at it with that listen on the side.

Barbarian vs Fighter - What do you "really" want to play?

[Talir]

This has disregarded the barbarian's damage immunity when not using heavy armor (at least 1 damage off from every physical attack, stacks with blur) as well as the benefit of increased movement speed. Next reset it is also very possible to find +1 chainmail/breastplate (medium armor) with increased damage immunities for barbarians. Happy hunting.